For the pitching coaches: setting some guidelines for innings pitched during week

We've had discussions about how much should a pitcher pitch, and it might be good to collect our thoughts into one thread. Without belaboring the point, there are lots of studies showing that excessive pitching can lead to injury. But, as of yet, no one has really talked about what the guidelines should be for pitching.

I think everyone would agree that the "five games in one day, eight games in a weekend" is too much. On the other hand, limiting a pitcher to 7 innings a week seems too cautious.

As a starting point, I'm going to toss out some ideas. Feel free to criticize or suggest modifications...I would love to hear what some of the other experienced coaches think would be reasonable.

For 12U (which includes 10U):

(1) No more than 18 innings over any two day period, and no more than 25 innings per week.
(2) For practice, no more than 50 pitchers thrown at maximum speed, three times per week.

For 18U (which includes 16U & 14U)

(1) No more than 18 innings over any two day period, and no more than 25 innings per week.
(2) For practice, no more than 100 pitches thrown at maximum speed, three times per week.

The idea with the game restriction is to allow a pitcher to throw in three games over a weekend, with one more game during the week.

What do you think?

I don't like pitching limitations. The only reason why you see inning limitations in the girls game is due to the fact that they exist in the boys game, which had limits set after medical studies were conducted. In my honest opinion, even the boys game limitations are silly. The catcher has to throw the ball back to the pitcher after every single pitch, yet there is no limitation on the number of innings a catcher can play. The whole thing is silly and designed to coddle oversensitive entitled parents.

If you want pitching limitations, I suggest a study by sports medicine experts and that the limitations be based on real empirical data and not just internet armchair opinions.

Point me to the data that suggests injuries due to over-stressed softball pitchers. Point me to data that tells me that it's fine to throw 200 pitches a night in practice or in a warmup, but throwing 100 more in a game is bad.

This isn't about "what we think", this is about good solid data.


-W

You can have these pitch limits and the fathers will still have the daughter throw for an hour a day every day throwing thousands of pitches per week.

thanks sluggers. your suggestions make sense. i think we do something like that without officially saying we do. its one game saturday and up to 2 games sunday (not back to back).

while i don't know if any studies have ever been made... there's got to be a level of common sense used regarding the amount of innings/number of pitches thrown. to simply have no restrictions, guidelines or self imposed limitations because no studies have been made is reckless.

More reply than you probably want to read

I think the days of unlimited pitching for fastpitch are rightfully coming to a close. Do I have data? My experience over 15 years of FP at a number of levels says that pitchers who throw too much get wrist, forearm and/or bicep tendinitis, labrum injuries, rotator cuff tears and other repetitive stress injuries. I've read on this forum about university studies that have concluded that repetitive stress injuries are much more common in high level pitchers than they have ever been before. When I first started coaching, my pitchers threw WAY too much, and several of them developed conditions that limited their performance or arm health. Over the past seven or eight years, I've generally kept my pitchers around 750 pitches a week (3 practices and two games, for ex.) For some, even that can be too much, but the large majority have been able to avoid the kind of nagging injuries I used to see.

Starsnuffer, I've heard the argument about the catcher throwing the ball back to the pitcher every pitch, and it doesn't hold water on this level: Both baseball and softball pitchers exert maximum energy every time they throw a game pitch. Most fastpitch pitchers I know throw at least 50 full speed pitches just to warm up (in addition to flips and frames). Maximum exertion puts more stress on the involved muscles and joints. Catchers don't wind up and exert maximum effort every time they throw a ball back. DD threw both games of a DH for her HS team last week--202 pitches over 12 innings in 45 degree, windy conditions. Including warmups and between innings pitches, she threw close to 400 pitches over 5 hours. She is in better pitching shape than most of her peers, but she was definitely done at the end of the day. In the summer, she occasionally throws more than 12 innings in a day, but rarely back to back games. DD is a pretty strong, tough girl, but when she has thrown too much, she feels it, and is good about not trying to hide it.

50 years ago, baseball pitchers threw WAY more than they do now--complete games were the norm, and throwing three or four games a week wasn't unheard of. They say Satchel Paige threw pretty much every day, sometimes both games of a DH. Sure, lots of guys ruined their arms, but some were able to pull it off. ASA and college pitchers have been throwing unlimited innings for many years, and many have overused and permanently injured their arms. For every Lisa Fernandez or Lori Harrigan or Kathy Smith there are dozens who flamed out physically.

On a practical level, the limits Sluggers put up there aren't too far off, though I would think that a higher inning limit for older girls or a lower one for younger girls would seem to be appropriate.

I believe that a pitch count is not as necessary as is knowing your pitchers. My dd throws around 600 to 700 pitches a week in practice. Others on her team threw for maybe a half hour twice a week. Those girls would have never made it to your limit due to a complete lack of stamina.

How can you limit 50 full speed pitches. After warm up, everything is full speed and will take much more than 50 to work on a new pitch or get the kinks out of some bad habit.

I think as is stated in the article linked below, that the hitters will let you know when a pitcher has reached their pitch count. Nolan Ryan is stressing conditioning over pitch counts. My dd always does better on game days the more she pitches, normally. There are days when her pitches couldn't hit the backstop, let alone the strike zone, so her count was again not relevant. Know your girls and treat them with respect and you will better know when they hit there limits without a counter.

I use a counter, just in keeping track of strikes to balls ratios, not as a OMG pull her!

I am sure that some girls have injuries caused by pitching, but was it the pitching or the lack of conditioning? My dd hurts after getting thrown into a game cold when the coach originally said he was not going to pitch her. He pulled her from center, placed her on the mound to get her 5 warm up pitches, and then she pitched for 25 pitches. When I took her a water, she told me her shoulder was hurting. Not the pitch count, the conditioning.

I am willing to learn, but reason and fact needs to be presented.

Nolan Ryan stresses conditioning over pitch counts - USATODAY.com

I have a hard time believing that a pitcher throwing full speed underhand is more stressful then a catcher returning the ball from her knees overhand the same number of times. Baseball has pitch limits because overhand throwing is bad for the body.

I do realize that there are a higher number of underhand pitching injuries that in prior years, but there is also a lot more college level softball then in prior years. Watch college games on TV, and you can see that this is probably attributed to atrocious (but effective) mechanics more then it is to pitch count.

Sure, if we're all content with lousy mechanics, then we need pitch limitations. I'd rather the emphasis be put on education on mechanics and physical conditioning.

-W

Pros:

- may help to limit overuse injuries
- protects pitchers from crazy coaches who only care about the "win" and not players long-term health
- takes some pressure off the #1
- allows for more girls to get an opportunity to pitch
- might allow pitchers (especially at the younger ages) to play different positions
- gives the batters an opportunity to face different pitchers, not just one dominant pitcher all tournament

Cons:

- one size does not fit all. Some pitchers can and should pitch more than others
- prepares them for college where they may pitch many more innings over a shorter period of time.
- takes away from the game, coach is worried about number of pitches not other aspects of game
- too much regulation already in the game. Let the players, coaches, and parents decide what is appropriate for them not a governing body

One thing not mentioned on this topic is the mechanics of the pitcher. Some pitchers have great mechanics and their motions are very fluid and don't have to exert so much on each pitch. Some "muscle" the ball and create a lot of stress on the joints etc. Knowing which kind you have can tell you if your pitcher is able to throw more or less than another.

I agree withe starsnuffer. Many kids are not not physically prepared to even throw 70 pitches not to mention keeping mechanics for 70 pitches. On the forum most would not agree with my dd mechanics. Its firm front foot, fast arm and hard snap. But in 8 yrs she has not had any injuries from pitching. For 6 of those yrs nothing but fb and cu. I believe a good fb is the basis for all the other pitches. I think its crazy to have 10 and 12 yr old throwing 5 different pitches when there fb is not crisp or accurate. Do not agree with pitch counts. I would like to know injury rates for the different styles. I do not think one report fits all styles.