2 seam VS 4 seam fastballs/disadvantage?

Classof2020 · Oct 21, 2016

When DD started pitching she used to alternate frequently between 2 and 4 seam based on first pitching coaches preference. Then came the time when we were being told that there wasn't any difference and don't waste your time etc. (you can find those old threads on this site actually

) so we quit throwing the 2 seam for a long time. Now in the last year I've asked her to start messing around with it again but she said she just can't find a comfortable grip for it anymore, it just doesn't feel right etc. So we've made very little progress back down this path that I'd like to pursue. Any hints for this?? is it just a matter of getting back in the habit?

Perfect Circle · Oct 21, 2016

Classof2020 said:
When DD started pitching she used to alternate frequently between 2 and 4 seam based on first pitching coaches preference. Then came the time when we were being told that there wasn't any difference and don't waste your time etc. (you can find those old threads on this site actually ) so we quit throwing the 2 seam for a long time. Now in the last year I've asked her to start messing around with it again but she said she just can't find a comfortable grip for it anymore, it just doesn't feel right etc. So we've made very little progress back down this path that I'd like to pursue. Any hints for this?? is it just a matter of getting back in the habit?

Yep remember them post....

I was just learning to put tape instead of drawing in the ball... much easier. I had been catching her, and seen some major movement @ times... I would try to have her freeze to find out which way she was holding it...This was back went I was getting my chins busted a lot with her learning a drop. Just getting the 12/6 on the ball...Since taping was so fast, I did one both ways...Wasn't long finding the movement grip. She was 9-10. Her pitches was just the drop, with top spin 12/6...2Seams made them cut left or right... so I counted them as curve & screw like pitches...Had my 7 pitches by 10U

Here is the pitch 5 yrs later...ones 2Seam the other 4Seam... Guess LOL

<video width="512" height="100%" controls loop video controls autoplay>
<source src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58923514/CoachJames/R%26D-Spin_HB.mp4" />
</video>

KneeHighSocks · Oct 21, 2016

Classof2020 said:
When DD started pitching she used to alternate frequently between 2 and 4 seam based on first pitching coaches preference. Then came the time when we were being told that there wasn't any difference and don't waste your time etc. (you can find those old threads on this site actually ) so we quit throwing the 2 seam for a long time. Now in the last year I've asked her to start messing around with it again but she said she just can't find a comfortable grip for it anymore, it just doesn't feel right etc. So we've made very little progress back down this path that I'd like to pursue. Any hints for this?? is it just a matter of getting back in the habit?

I could say the same only in reverse. My DD doesn't like the way a 4 seam feels anymore. But if she keeps throwing it ,it gets better. Her preferred is the 2 seam which, when she first learned she HATED btw. Her coach realized (faster than us) that speed was not going to be her thing probably until she gets older and grows a bit more , so he started focus on teaching her deception and placement, which she is good at. for a while he would only have her throw the 2 seam, every pitch. she hated it. it was wild. she would cry. then one day in clicked and she's never looked back.

sluggers · Oct 22, 2016

There is more to throwing a "2 seam fastball" than simply changing the position of the fingers on the ball.

In order to throw something like the MLB 2-seamer, your DD has to learn how to change the orientation of the rotation axis of the pitch. If you look at Perfect's video, you can see that the axis of rotation of the two pitches is different. This changes the movement of the pitch.

If all your DD does is simply rotate the ball in her hand to change how her fingers lay on the ball, there will be no difference in movement.

Hillhouse · Oct 22, 2016

riseball said:
I do not know of anyone on the upper end that throws both a 2 seam and 4 seam. They find the one that works for them and that usually ends up as their go-to pitch. As to which one has more spin - it really should not matter. Spin is spin the only thing you are changing is the orientation of the ball at release. Conventional wisdom and applied physics should tell us that all things equal a 4 seam would have more movement (greater resistance) and the 2 seam should be a tad faster (less resistance). However, the 2 seam can generate some wicked, and at times unpredictable movement. In pitching unpredictability is a good thing, so long as it does not get to the point of chaos. That type of unpredictability in movement is often inaccurately described as being effectively wild. To the point earlier, changing speeds is critical and cannot be over emphasized. Unfortunately a 2 seam is not a pitch I have seen successfully thrown at various speeds. Believe me we tried with my DD. It is a power pitch and you need to throw it very hard to be effective. Changing speeds with a 4 seam is very effective as you not only change speeds but often the resulting movement. Find which one works for your DD.

You mentioned the high level pitchers not throwing the 2 seam much. This is, in part, because the hitters are learning how to identify pitches earlier and earlier. If not from the coach picking the pitcher then by the rotation itself. Whether you're talking about a RB or a DB, anything with 2 seams is not going to be spinning as tight as 4 seams will which helps mask the pitch and the direction the pitch is going in. I know it's done and I know people will defend it but I simply cannot understand why anyone would want to throw a 2 seam drop at higher levels. It gives the pitch away very early. VERY early. At the young ages, not so much. Identifying spin is a huge part of hitting in Fastpitch softball. Using 2 seams will only help the pitcher in the long run.

Bill

riseball · Oct 22, 2016

Hillhouse said:
You mentioned the high level pitchers not throwing the 2 seam much. This is, in part, because the hitters are learning how to identify pitches earlier and earlier. If not from the coach picking the pitcher then by the rotation itself. Whether you're talking about a RB or a DB, anything with 2 seams is not going to be spinning as tight as 4 seams will which helps mask the pitch and the direction the pitch is going in. I know it's done and I know people will defend it but I simply cannot understand why anyone would want to throw a 2 seam drop at higher levels. It gives the pitch away very early. VERY early. At the young ages, not so much. Identifying spin is a huge part of hitting in Fastpitch softball. Using 2 seams will only help the pitcher in the long run.

Bill

I mentioned that I have not seen many high level pitchers throw both a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball. To you point I can't imagine throwing a 2 seam drop or rise. It seems counter intuitive. Were it not for the freakish tailing movement that a very few pitchers can attain with a 2 seam FB, I am of the school of get as many seams to the air if possible. As with any pitch if you can make a 2 seam move, then own it. If not find something that does and learn to throw it at least 2 different velocities.

KneeHighSocks · Oct 24, 2016

Hillhouse said:
..... I know it's done and I know people will defend it but I simply cannot understand why anyone would want to throw a 2 seam drop at higher levels. It gives the pitch away very early. VERY early. At the young ages, not so much. Identifying spin is a huge part of hitting in Fastpitch softball. Using 2 seams will only help the pitcher in the long run.

Bill

do you mean using 2 seams will only help the batter in the long run? Just trying to understand. You make good points. If this is the case should i have DD go back to throwing the drop with 4 seams?

Rocketech1 · Oct 24, 2016

To paraphrase BH, don't throw 2-seam fastballs because the batter can recognize the pitch early and it doesn't break as much. Stick with 4-seams...

Perfect Circle · Oct 24, 2016

Use just the 4Seam
Drop & Rise would be counter intuitive...

I hear you... believe me... I take it as cautioning form Masters I respect !!!
But I just got this bass ackward... DNA.... LOL

Here is my latest.... getting ready to have DD work on SlingShot Pitch 2Seam....(next Year???)... I forgot to throw the pitch... just getting the feet Right

<video width="512" height="100%" controls loop video controls autoplay>
<source src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58923514/SW/Sling-Shot.MP4" />
</video>

Really working on a pitch you can SWING & a swing you can PITCH...
for when the ump can't see a, skippy, re-planting, putting in a step, crowhopper.

Really going to have to teach this to 2yr.old GDD... DD would never go long with this... she's too traditional... LOL

riseball · Oct 24, 2016

The reality is that the vast majority of hitters do not even see spin much less recognize it, process the information, and then use it to their advantage. While I have nothing but respect for BH, much of what happens in the mens game is much less common in the women's game. While typically a 2 seam will not move as much as a 4 seam that is not always the case. As with any pitch if you can own it then it is a great pitch. It got my DD an NJCAA National Championship ring and an all expense paid trip for 2 years in the SEC so I cannot see her switching to a 4 seam because it should move more..

2 seam VS 4 seam fastballs/disadvantage?

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