Rebuild My Pitcher?

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osagedr

Canadian Fastpitch Dad
Oct 20, 2016
280
28
First DFP post ever! DD is 12; 13 next March; pitching up here in the frozen hinterland in Manitoba. Actual softball season starts about May 1 and nationals are mid-August (league play and provincial (i.e. "state") championships wrap up by mid-July. Yes, painfully short season. We pitch year-round (indoors from say Oct-April) and team practice indoors Nov-April.

DD at 5'7" 135 is a big strong kid for 12. Great natural athlete, fast as all get-out on the bases and has been "kinda" pitching since she was about 8, but only really serious for the last year and a bit, her first TB season. She's first year 14U (we call it U14 up here; covers players born in 2003 and 2004 for the 2017 season) and this upcoming season playing for our province's best TB team (the organization won provincial championships at U12, U14, U16, U18 this season and the U14 team she is joining won silver at Canadian national). She hit 52.5 on my Stalker Sport 2 a few weeks ago and cruises at 49/50 with a good changeup (our pitching distance is 38 feet at this age!) She loves the PC on her new team and has a longtime relationship with him as her instructor (winter clinics for last 4 years). The team has 2x2003 pitchers and 2x2004 pitchers. She'll have the opportunity to compete for innings but the best pitchers will pitch and I am happy with that (she had an offer of #1 or #2 on the team that I expect to be #2 in the province this year) given I know she will have a good PC and get better development at other skills on this team.

The organization she is with is outstanding (top handful in Canada; more senior women's titles than any organization in the country) and places girls often in the northern states at D3 schools; sometimes D2 and very occasionally a D1 (for example her HC for this upcoming season is an alum who played D1 at a not-household-name college in Georgia about 12 years ago). Relative to other opportunities where we are, this organization has the best coaches and player development IMO.

So even though the organization is stellar, a lot of what I read here and elsewhere regarding pitching I don't think is filtering its way to the PCs where I live. DD's warmup includes "snaps", "T-position"; "K-position"; "side-circles"; etc. So in "T-position" the focus is on keeping the hand "square", leading with the thumb, then doing a wrist snap and finishing with "showing her muscle" and the elbow pointing at the plate.

I've read sooooo much about IR and BI that I am quite tempted to kind of "rebuild" her from a mechanical standpoint and try to get her delivery looking more what I see in the "model pitcher" thread, etc. As it stands, she spins the ball very well (not huge numbers on the Rev Fire but clean, straight spin which gives her a hard fastball witha tiny bit of tail/drop). We had her throwing a good hard slider early this season but she was having trouble turning it off and going back to a pure fastball so we abandoned it but it is in reserve.

Should I be looking at a rebuild on the principles of IR and BI? Will anything happen to her great, true spin on the ball? I am virtually certain that a rebuild will get her throwing harder (young pitchers I see throwing at USSSA nationals, PGF, etc on Youtube mostly have great IR and finish with a very low hand - I think she is as technically sound and physically powerful as any of these but lacks their speed). Am I overthinking this? Will it cause friction with the PC? Will the kid get discouraged? She's extremely coachable and will "buy into" a change if the long-term benefits will be clear.

Sorry for the long post but thanks for whatever advice you can offer!
 
Jan 4, 2012
3,848
38
OH-IO
Welcome... Yes I would re-build...IR/BI... call it re-boot though. Just let her know she is going to be adding stuff every year until & even in the NPF... :{))

Read & Saved this Today... the verbal approach to Speed:

This is going to sound like a mean approach potentially...I think you need to convince her...make the point. Tell her...good, you've learned how to throw a change up...lets work on the fastball now. You do specific things to maximize speed...you essentially do the opposite to throw a changeup. You pull the ball down/palm up to maximize the IR of the forearm...you push the ball down to minimize the IR to take speed away when throwing a change. You have a bent elbow to help the arm be prepared to whip and make it loose...you stiffen the elbow to reduce the whip potential on a change. edit***you would also skip or minimize the brush and push or backhand the release to take more speed off a changeup...missing the brush as she is doing is another way to slow the ball down*** Maybe a negative approach would help her connect things...you are doing things that you would do on purpose in order to throw the ball slower. Now if we wanted to add speed...what would we do???

Bring It >>>>
 
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Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48
Welcome! My 2 cents is that it is never too late to learn proper pitching mechanics, especially at 12YO and you have more than 6 months before the May 1st season starts. I highly recommend she does the "IR in the Classroom" drills so she can learn how to properly throw underhand and then graduate to Java's drive mechanics and Pauly's brush interference information. I would try to find a local PC who teaches some of these things and if none are available, YOU be her PC for the mechanics piece and rely on the paid PC for game strategy, pitching practice, moral support, etc. For example, DD's PC (who has no idea what IR or BI is) doesn't mess with her arm whip mechanics too much but will show her certain grips, discuss glove arm positions, setting up batters to strike them out, use real examples from when she pitched in college, is a motivator, etc. There are many more benefits of a PC even if they don't teach good and proper arm whip mechanics. As long as you (and more importantly) your DD knows proper mechanics from poor mechanics, all will be fine.

Good luck!
 
May 9, 2015
263
18
West Virginia
My DD was a freshman in HS when we started the transition from HE to IR, she was an ok pitcher who was actually doing a little IR on her own (after all it's natural) which could be the case with your DD. I can say it was worth it, she picked up around 8-10 mph and was first team all sate as a sophomore after 1 full year of working on IR principals. Her ball is no longer a flat cork screw, sometimes it spins out of your glove now. I'm not bragging ;) just stating the case for taking the plunge. The DFP community is great to help, don't be shy about posting he progress and asking questions. Hang a tarp and hammer down!
 

SB45

Dad, Coach, Chauffeur
Sep 2, 2016
150
28
Western NY
The posts above are pretty clear. One other perspective...I'm assuming most people would share this view...you can be an Ace at 12 without having great technique...you can be pretty successful at 13...average at 14...at 15 she'll be playing CF. Without BI & IR, her potential is limited...in fact the speeds you are quoting are pretty good for a non-brush (ie no whip) pitcher (unless those are km/hr):D. I would say that her potential to improve without improving her technique is very limited. She can work her tail off...but you won't see results. To me, the real separator is creating whip...it goes beyond the body's ability to just throw the ball fast...and you can't create whip effectively without brush interference. (IMO)
 
May 13, 2012
599
18
The posts above are pretty clear. One other perspective...I'm assuming most people would share this view...you can be an Ace at 12 without having great technique...you can be pretty successful at 13...average at 14...at 15 she'll be playing CF. Without BI & IR, her potential is limited...in fact the speeds you are quoting are pretty good for a non-brush (ie no whip) pitcher (unless those are km/hr):D. I would say that her potential to improve without improving her technique is very limited. She can work her tail off...but you won't see results. To me, the real separator is creating whip...it goes beyond the body's ability to just throw the ball fast...and you can't create whip effectively without brush interference. (IMO)

THIS x10. I bet about everyone on the pitching forum with older daughters can give you at least example of stud to dude as the aged up with HE. My #1 when I got into coachING TB at 10U could locate and enough speed to be #1. Fast forward she kept getting less effective as she aged went to another team for circle time throwing HE, one yr HS and quit playing all together. She got hammered.
 

osagedr

Canadian Fastpitch Dad
Oct 20, 2016
280
28
The posts above are pretty clear. One other perspective...I'm assuming most people would share this view...you can be an Ace at 12 without having great technique...you can be pretty successful at 13...average at 14...at 15 she'll be playing CF. Without BI & IR, her potential is limited...in fact the speeds you are quoting are pretty good for a non-brush (ie no whip) pitcher (unless those are km/hr):D. I would say that her potential to improve without improving her technique is very limited. She can work her tail off...but you won't see results. To me, the real separator is creating whip...it goes beyond the body's ability to just throw the ball fast...and you can't create whip effectively without brush interference. (IMO)

Thanks...LOL, not km/h thankfully (although a Mom off a different team about a year ago was very proud that her daughter threw 60 at 10yo b/c she had heard really good pitchers throw 60 at 14yo...problem was her PC's gun was km/h)! The funny/sad part of this story is that thinking back to the stuff I and her PC's have "fixed"; one of them was pretty good IR after about 9 o'clock. I'd break down video and say "See how your hand there is not "behind" the ball there and you're not leading with the thumb? You need to fix that!" Sooooo bad.

Appreciate everyone's time in responding!
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
Should I be looking at a rebuild on the principles of IR and BI?

My DD (all conference D1) pitcher was taught HE mechanics. (No one understood pitching when she was taught.) Over her career, she picked up BI and IR by herself. IR and BI is the only way to pitch at a high level. It would have been much, much better if she had been taught this at the beginning. With BI and IR,she was hitting 67MPH at the end of her senior year of college. How good would she have been had she been taught correctly?

BOTTOM LINE: Your DD has to learn BI and IR to be "good". Right now, her current coaches run the risk of ruining her.

Will anything happen to her great, true spin on the ball?
Nope.
Am I overthinking this?

Look, there is only one way to pitch. She is not learning the method now.

Will it cause friction with the PC?

Yes...people don't like to be told that they are wrong.

Will the kid get discouraged?

She won't get discouraged learning IR and BI. She'll see pretty rapid improvement in her accuracy and speed.

She will get frustrated and confused by the her father telling her "do this" and her coaches telling her "do that". HE coaches are resolute in their ignorance.
 
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Jan 4, 2012
3,848
38
OH-IO
Sold on DM/BI/IR... My DD started out @ 9 with IR... still working on BI. Not sure I can agree its the only way to get to D1 or elite level....Here is one that's pretty good for Bama... From my best curve I ever seen file... LOL

sydney_littlejohn_.gif


EP: the only clip I have in that folder :cool:
 
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