The second "h" and the kick-out

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Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
I posted this in another thread. However, I want to make sure there is some discussion on this, hopefully from the top pitching gurus here.

Some will disagree, but I think Ueno is second to none with her drive mechanics. In particular, watch how she has very nearly fully spent the thrust of her right leg/foot before she really kicks out the left foot to continue what the right leg got going. I think many pitchers start kicking out before they've actually pushed fully with the right leg/foot, resulting in a less than ideal drive, and less than ideal ground force upon landing. I see the kick out as needing to be an action meant to help extend with the drive/push leg/foot can no longer do. Of course, timing (sequence) of the kickout is the key.

The clip has a stop-action at a stage that I like to refer to as the SECOND forward leaning "h"--the "h" formed with the LEFT leg (showing, what I believe, is an optimal kick-out timing (or proper sequencing of the kick-out). I believe the way Ueno kicks out the way, and in the sequence, as she does comes as close to optimal as she can get. I see her kick-out as greatly complementing her powerful thrust with her right leg/foot.

Java.... Maybe you can add better description here.

 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Doug, with all due respect, I think this can easily become another thread of things that are over stated, over analyzed, and over complicated. We have to accept that sometimes pitchers are good DESPITE what they do, not because of it. One should always train their pitcher(s) to be as perfect mechanically as possible but also know it's never going to be perfect. You mentioned Ueno and her drive being as close to perfection as you've seen (paraphrase)... I think it's good and it certainly shows. But she also has mechanics that if done a little better would mean even more speed, i.e. her backswing. Most people know I don't like the back swing but, just imagine this... what if she let her glove hand follow the ball backwards past the hip in that backswing? She'd get BOTH 1/2's of her body exploding forward instead of just 1/2. That's a HUGE speed booster and one that sooooooo many people over look. Think of a jump ball in basketball, does one swing one arm back (in a load or negative movement) to jump high or do they swing both arms? Or a broad jumper... again, both arms swing backward to get maximum help of the top half of body helping the lower 1/2. So, if she did this, would she get 5mph more? 10mph? I don't know. But the speed would go up, as would her ability to hide the ball in a better fashion so Ken Eriksen doesn't pick every pitch.

That said, I'm not even sure I follow your question completely. Are you saying she has too much of an "S" with her drag foot? If so, that, and other things are NEVER going to be perfect. But a simple reminder to keep the shoe laces pointed to the catcher after the arm passes through will help with keeping it straighter. But maybe I'm not reading your question correctly.

Bill
 
Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
Doug, with all due respect...

I'm not sure a fella like me is "due respect." :) You, on the other hand, are due a great deal of respect. At least that's what I think.

...I'm not even sure I follow your question completely. Are you saying she has too much of an "S" with her drag foot? If so, that, and other things are NEVER going to be perfect. But a simple reminder to keep the shoe laces pointed to the catcher after the arm passes through will help with keeping it straighter. But maybe I'm not reading your question correctly.

I'm not actually asking a question, but there may be questions that arise from my observation. :) I wasn't really focusing on the drag foot. When working with pitching students on their drive, I find myself often looking back at Ueno's drive mechanics. In particular, I like watching (first) that right leg and what she does to thrust up and out, and (secondly) how she kicks out with her left leg/foot in such a way to complement what she got going with her right leg. I think it's a worthy goal for pitchers to do something very similar to what she does in this regard.

Doug

P.S. I, for one, am very happy when you post here. Sometimes we don't hear much from you. :)
 
Jan 4, 2012
3,852
38
OH-IO
Took a burst of still shot's...and video too of course... here's one.. is this the second "H" your talking about ???

1-pitch.jpg
 
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Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
Nope. The second "h" I'm referring to is this... Left knee forward well before kick-out/reach with left foot.

Snapshot 1 (9-23-2016 10-25 PM).jpg

The first "h" I think of is this.... Leaning forward into the right knee just prior to GO with the thrust forward

Snapshot 1 (9-25-2016 10-04 PM).jpg
 
Last edited:

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Thanks for illustrating the second H...

This is a magnificent point, Doug.

The second H means that the drive leg has exhausted the push. It wasn't posting for a stride leg to swing around, it was working. When you watch the best of the best, you'll see that this results in disconnection from the plate prior to even reaching three. It's a great model of learned coordination and efficiency in involving the lower half for something other than standing. When it's the other way around... the force is lessened, the timing typically suffers, the fall is vertical (if not negative), and the base is too damn wide to efficiently recover.

I've said this quite a few times before... but it really has to do with understanding where to apply effort. There are three planes of movement... sagittal, transverse, and lateral. When a pitcher embraces the first and last... and merely accepts transverse movement as a 'result'... they cut their inefficiencies by 90%. Complete sagittal effort by 3 o'clock. Meaning... screw getting open... it's a result... instead, get out and off... with urgency. This urgency and effort out... creates well-timed rotation (a natural response to the hips accommodating the stride).

If you really think about it... everything that SHOULD occur between 3 and 9 is 'effortless'... you should be disconnected from the ground... free, gliding, or whatever you want to call it. Regardless... it's when whole body transverse (rotational) movement most efficiently occurs. Upon plant and firming up BY 9... the body most overcome all rotary inertia... by applying effort in the form of RESISTANCE to rotation.... or the third plane... lateral. I often use the term forward effort... and it always appears in the form of 1) not resisting rotation in the 3rd plane or 2) a serious inefficiency in the 1st plane.

Pitching coaches really miss the boat on this. They spend so much time teaching kids to either create rotation or put them in positions where they can't stop it. It's ugly... things like: cradle, PIVOT foot, Palm-to-sky on the upswing, stride to a line, brush the bicep to the ear, get your hand on top after 12, knee-to-knee, slam the hips, figure-4 kick, locked out arm, clear the hips, etc. Just because it's comfortable to say or repeat... doesn't make it efficient or practical for instruction.

Good points for discussion Doug... you're a pretty smart cat.
 
Jun 19, 2014
846
43
Raleigh,NC
I am going to take a jab at this. My explanation may not be as good as the experts. First, here is a link that talks about drive but most importantly hip hingehttp://https://breakingmuscle.com/mobility-recovery/establishing-your-drive-train-screening-and-correcting-the-hip-hinge Reason it is so important is because that is how we get our power. What you see Ueno do so well is she uses both sides of her hips effectively. You don't see her lead with her foot like you see many girls do. That is because she is getting a good drive off BOTH sides as a result of creating a good hip hinge.

I also want to mention another observation about many girls. Unlike the male counterpart, we have one hip that is more dominant. Mostly because how we stand. Majority of females stand with one hip out. We are also quad dominant. Combine that with how many girls are trained, it only encourages that imbalance.
 
Jan 4, 2012
3,852
38
OH-IO
Nope. The second "h" I'm referring to is this... Left knee forward well before kick-out/reach with left foot.
The first "h" I think of is this.... Leaning forward into the right knee just prior to GO with the thrust forward

Yep... I was way off... :confused: Got the toe pointed 2Target, Tongue 2Target... Your point is next ... Thx... Timely !!!
 

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