shoulder english

Jut posted about this on the model Pitcher thread thought I would start a thread on this.
During the regional and before I noticed some D1 pitchers throwing with a lot of shoulder "english". One that I can remember is the shorter pitcher from GA. There are others. What or why are they. Just an observation and question.

Phathead said:

Jut posted about this on the model Pitcher thread thought I would start a thread on this.
During the regional and before I noticed some D1 pitchers throwing with a lot of shoulder "english". One that I can remember is the shorter pitcher from GA. There are others. What or why are they. Just an observation and question.

Click to expand...

Does the shoulder english take place before ball release?

FiveFrameSwing pointed out some time ago that Cat Osterman strives to avoid shoulder english before ball release. FWIW, Denny Tincher also counsels this (oddly, he uses the scapula as a cue).

My email to Denny Tincher: Is Cat Osterman using her scapula correctly at 4:44 in this video? ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG4fIor1hy4 ) At 4:44, she says (and shortly after demonstrates) "keep your back shoulder back at release".

I can see how Cat and dd use their shoulder differently. Game video shows dd’s shoulder rolling forward (or “pushing”) about 1/15 second before release. Cat’s shoulder rolls forward AFTER release.

If yes, I'll show dd video of what she and Cat do differently. If not, I'll leave it alone.


Denny's answer: You are exactly right. If she rolls the shoulder, letting it lead the ball through release, then she is only using the shoulder to create the desired action. In other words, hips are submissive. The movement is not as dramatic as it should be, it is not as healthy, and it gives a visual cue to better hitters at higher age levels.

pumpkinbear said:

Does the shoulder english take place before ball release?

FiveFrameSwing pointed out some time ago that Cat Osterman strives to avoid shoulder english before ball release. FWIW, Denny Tincher also counsels this (oddly, he uses the scapula as a cue).

My email to Denny Tincher: Is Cat Osterman using her scapula correctly at 4:44 in this video? ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG4fIor1hy4 ) At 4:44, she says (and shortly after demonstrates) "keep your back shoulder back at release".

I can see how Cat and dd use their shoulder differently. Game video shows dd’s shoulder rolling forward (or “pushing”) about 1/15 second before release. Cat’s shoulder rolls forward AFTER release.

If yes, I'll show dd video of what she and Cat do differently. If not, I'll leave it alone.


Denny's answer: You are exactly right. If she rolls the shoulder, letting it lead the ball through release, then she is only using the shoulder to create the desired action. In other words, hips are submissive. The movement is not as dramatic as it should be, it is not as healthy, and it gives a visual cue to better hitters at higher age levels.

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting Denny's answer pumpkinbear. I think he mentions something extremely important........In other words, hips are submissive to quote him above if the shoulder is rolling and leading the ball at release.

I think his statement coupled with what I believe is an often overlooked mechanic and one of the least talked about on this site. Below is a link to a thread from Coach Pauly that did not get much traction but should have IMHO. There is little discussion past this point about this (or I am missing it which could be the case). Anyway, I think this is one of the diamonds in the rough that should be discussed more.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/16719-creating-correct-core-torque.html

Pumpkin has what I think to be going on for some of the pitchers I have noticed doing this. My DD PC uses the term "quite" shoulders and that is what I push her to when we practice. I belive this to be right but it is confusing to some to see a D 1 pitcher doing things we are trying to avoid, but yet there it is on espn, I won't even start on the skippies, and hoppers.

I asked about this shoulder thing, and i was scolded by most. but i see it also.

Phathead said:

Jut posted about this on the model Pitcher thread thought I would start a thread on this.
During the regional and before I noticed some D1 pitchers throwing with a lot of shoulder "english". One that I can remember is the shorter pitcher from GA. There are others. What or why are they. Just an observation and question.

Click to expand...

DD has played Kylie Bass several times in TB. I think she uses shoulder English to create more spin and compensate for shorter leavers in her mechanics.