Another HE Confrontation and Interesting Result

dbronstein said:

To play devil's advocate, why would you want to stay with a pitching coach who you think is teaching incorrect fundamentals? You hire a pitching coach for their expertise, so why stick with them if you disagree with what they are teaching?

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Because sometimes, it's better than nothing. There were a few local PC's that my daughters enjoyed going to now and then. They had game experience that they shared and really connected well with the kids. They were great motivators and the girls looked forward to seeing them, knowing when to smile-and-nod and when to listen. One has since retired and the other is very ill. The two PC's I'd love to get lil DD in to see aren't available... What do we do? I give her as much as she'll take from DOD (dear old dad) and continue to keep my eyes and ears open for THE PC that I can fully trust to work with my kid and the kids I have to turn away.

4KidsDad said:

I think I read somewhere that actually happened. . .once? Maybe twice.

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I know of several very good coaches who have adapted and changed their teaching methods over time. I have a lot of respect for them and I am lucky enough that my DD has a couple of them as her PC and her hitting coaches.

There is no excuse as a coach to not be up on the latest trends and learning and at least openly consider new information. Over the last few years, access to high speed cameras, learning tools and advances in motion studies have moved a lot of disciplines forward. If your justification is 'that was how I taught', then that is not good enough. If you don't know 'why' you are teaching what you are teaching then all you are is a parrot.

If you want to make the attempt to convert a coach and see if they are willing, all you need to do is:
1) send them slow-motion video of any of the top pitchers you can find. The Amanda Scarborough video is the most effective (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avcEmdxuc30). And to give Amanda a lot of credit, she has changed how she talks about pitching as well. Sarah Pauly is another good one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBP19qvFdK0).
2) Send them the links here - but in particular all the Rick Pauly posts. While boardmember and java posts are the esasist to use to learn, Rick has name recognition as a coach and obviously through his daughters performance
3) If they pitched ask for a video of them pitching. Bet they didn't use HE in college. Or even videos of their best students pitching in college.

And ask them - where is a high elbow finish? If you can show me some high level pitchers with a high elbow finish (not including the Finch IR to HE arm jerk well after the ball has gone), then we can talk. If not why are we learning something that the best are not doing...

Two additional things:
1) Many 'successful' pitchers coaches tout are often massively talented both physically and in natural movement. They succeed DESPITE their coaches which normally shows up in slow motion. As you said, your DD naturally flows into a IR type motion because it feels right (mine did too)

2) There is ONE argument I have heard HE coaches use. And that is "We teach HE for the fastball as the 'structure/foundation/basis' of the movement pitchers where they wont finish with the high elbow. Once she has the fastball down we move onto those. This is what you are seeing from the high level pitchers video - other pitches". This makes no sense to me (but at least they had a REASON they were teaching HE), and my answer was "If we are not going to throw a fastball in a game beyond 14u, then why are we even bothering. Why can't we teach proper follow through while working on more effective pitches?". There is even a local PC who once he gets the HE fastball where he wants it, then teaches what is basically IR type mechanics and has a whole stable of very successful pitchers he has worked with. It is basically accidental success but he knows it works (though not why) and for those who stick with him, they truly are taught IR pitches at practice and do throw IR pitches in games but still warm up with wrist flips and HE fastballs.

I also totally agree with the 'why pay a coach to teach fundamentals you know are sub-optimal' - and often the answer is for many one or more of:
1) my choices of coaches are limited where I live
2) my DD doesn't listen/like being coached by me.
3) my team forces us to use coach X.

All I can say to that is that I sympathize and wish you luck and keep switching until you find what you need. Good luck.

Thanks, marriard. Great words.

I'm having DD take lessons from another PC as an exercise for me to start letting go. I'm hoping she can learn new things, especially from a female influence. If she continues on in this game, I'll have to let go at some point.

Maybe it's not time.

New question that may have been answered before but I can't find it: Is there a way to save video clips from this site directly? I'm trying to build my video library to help DD (and possibly the PC) but having a hard time figuring how to do it.

marriard said:

2) There is ONE argument I have heard HE coaches use. And that is "We teach HE for the fastball as the 'structure/foundation/basis' of the movement pitchers where they wont finish with the high elbow. Once she has the fastball down we move onto those. This is what you are seeing from the high level pitchers video - other pitches". This makes no sense to me (but at least they had a REASON they were teaching HE), and my answer was "If we are not going to throw a fastball in a game beyond 14u, then why are we even bothering. Why can't we teach proper follow through while working on more effective pitches?". There is even a local PC who once he gets the HE fastball where he wants it, then teaches what is basically IR type mechanics and has a whole stable of very successful pitchers he has worked with. It is basically accidental success but he knows it works (though not why) and for those who stick with him, they truly are taught IR pitches at practice and do throw IR pitches in games but still warm up with wrist flips and HE fastballs.

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Last fall took DD to one lesson with a PC and liked how she picked out the three flaws my daughter needs to work on. Couldn't get onto her schedule until last week. She starts teaching a HE like finish for a reason like above. She says my daughter has an almost natural drop ball, but she wants to build on foundation of a good fastball. I bit my tongue, but told my DD in the car on the way home to mention that a 'sip the coke' finish is what feels more natural.

I'll see how much the PC emphasizes HE like finishes this week and discuss it at the end the lesson this week.

It took me a while to find the right pitching coach for my DD. She saw a few HE coaches, one who's daughter was a D1 pitcher and when we talked about HE versus IR he had no idea what IR was and he would always say "This is how my daughter pitched and she pitched D1."

Now she is with a great pitching coach who teaches IR but didn't refer to it as IR until I talked to him about it.

As far as control goes, he has always said you make your mechanics correct first, then speed comes next then he worries about control. The mechanics are too important not to make them #1 priority.

As far as stepping aside, there will be a time, but I don't know when that time is. My DD just turned 13 and I'm still involved. I'll take a back seat in a couple of years when I think she's ready for it.

DD has seen a handful of pitching coaches.

The issue as I see it is that the organization tells the coach how to teach so they do it, it doesn't mean they want to teach it or pitch that way.

PC and need a new bat run neck and neck for hard softball things.

Doug Romrell said:

The bottom line is this..... You're completely screwed if you're talking about HS ball. If you're talking travel team, you should be able to find a team that is more open to your DD having her own pitching coach.

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While I agree with the premise here, I think much of this depends on the true coaching ability of the person in question. For example, DD's high school coach promotes the HE finish, but DD seems competent in using her I/R style and deflecting HE type comments. If the coach does make a comment about her elbow, DD will complete her pitch, and then finish with the high elbow long after I/R has been completed. Typically this is followed by "Great job kid!!" from the coach. She then returns to her typical finish until another comment is made.

Coincidentally, a similar thing occurred at team hitting practice this past weekend. The head coach was demonstrating "squish the bug" to the varsity players. DD came to bat. She got under the first pitch a little. Coach shouted some instructions about "squishing". She roped the next pitch directly up the middle and was rewarded with the "Great job kid!!" even though she didn't actually alter anything in her swing. The rest of the round went well with hard line drives being sent in all directions. No more instructions from the coach....

It is to the point that DD has adapted to what the coach is asking of her, and works around those instructions, while making it appear as though she is following them. We then laugh about it afterwards. As long as the coach thinks DD is doing what is asked, it seems to be working.

3 weeks i went through this very same thing and i hated having to deal with it because i thought we could work it out. It went something like this. While they were doing release drills she noticed DD finishing palm down and said why are finishing palm down like a drop ball. DD says that it the way my dad wants me to finish. Dad steps in, in a very nice way and tried to explain to coach that the spin on the ball at the time of release is not a drop ball spin. The coach was perplexed and really didn't know what to say. DD finished the lesson and was very confused. Needless to say i had doubts too, on losing a pitching coach if i decided to stick with IR. So i mentioned this issue on this board on how to deal with this issue. The next day i texted the coach to see if she would entertain the idea of coaching DD with out messing with her release. A day later she responded and said that she was an elite pitcher and has coached many college pitchers. She was successful as a pitcher many years ago she has coached kids to D3 schools. She thought is was best if we moved on, so we have moved on but i have yet to locate a IR coach in the chicagoland area.

I understand the structure comment. I feel that girls like a framework, much more so than boys.(even in basketball).

They are thinking 'please tell me how to finish" . In conversion, i start with "shake hands with the catchers face" You can go "palm down and poke them in the eye"

So find myself on the other side of this issue. After a few years of pestering by the school I've made the tragic mistake of saying yes to coaching the high school Team. So I totally expect when I line up the pitchers and have them throw I will see a stable of HE pitchers. So do I become the coach we all like to complain about or should I brush up on all the outdated terms like paint the line, elbow to the target, slam the barn door. with only a few months to work with and no desire for warfare I think I'm going to have to grin and bear it.