Palm Up Curve

cantletitgo · Jun 25, 2016

javasource said:
It may just be one case... but one of the better female spinners is often viewed as Cat... and it's rumored that she started with a bullet spin fastball.

Im sure you've seen this clip before, but at 1:37 Osterman starts talking about how she naturally throws a "corkscrew" fastball, that's simply the way she was taught, and there's no right or wrong way to throw it. Shortly after, she demonstrates two different fastball grips, "downward spin" and "corkscrew".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzvo42UsJmA

javasource · Jun 25, 2016

Hillhouse said:
Young MC....

Ok, lets say some of the fastest pitchers have bullet spin, wouldn't that also explain why girls are hitting 25 HR's a year or more??? I'd say it's a major factor. Speed is nice to have but it's not the holy grail of pitching. We both know that.

I am a simple man and you are much smarter than me. But, I don't see how turning the wrist makes a ball go faster than letting it whip. If true, men's pitchers would be doing it too. And I know of NONE who do this. At least none good.

I am not sure if we're agreeing or not on the drop. I think a PC who tells someone to peel the drop by pulling up on the ball (I call it starting a lawn mower) is going to be slower by nature. There's no way to whip the elbow if they're pulling up so of course it's going to be slower than a "fastball". That is why I don't teach or believe in such a thing for a pitcher to do. The motion has to be the same, not pulling up for one, twisting the wrist for another, leaning, tilting, etc. How can someone be consistent when doing that? I was a pretty good pitcher and I know I couldn't. 99% of girls I work with who throw a fastball say they get a drop action to it a lot of times but don't know how they did it. They don't realize it's simple matter of release point. That's it. If she's got 6/12 spin, and a good release point, that ball is dropping!!! There's no need to step short, tilt or pull up and back for a "peel" action. This is the stuff that drives me insane about the pitching coach mafia. (No Java, you're not PCM!) They make things 10x harder than it needs to be with stupid drills, stupid actions, etc.

Here's the bottom line, if anyone says a girl cannot throw pitches like a man and needs to tilt, lean, step sideways, etc. then they weren't ready to throw breaking pitches. Sorry folks... fact of life right there. And as Donnie Baker (comedian) would say: I'll say it right to your face! Can you imagine a baseball pitcher stepping straight for a FB but, sideways for a curve? He'd get lit up!!! And as more and more men FP players get into the game and teach the art of picking pitches, as technology gets better and we see how to improve swings, as bats become more composite, balls become harder, the pitcher will lose his/her advantage quicker than you can say Grand Slam. Parents and coaches want things before their ready most of the time which is why there is so many bad spinning pitchers.

BTW Java, I disagree about Ueno. I saw her in 2004 in Manila at the Asian games. I said to my hosts if I had her for 1 month the USA would never beat Japan again. Turns out they didn't need me in 2008.

As Tupac said before his death.... well he said a lot of things. But the fact remains, people make this stuff too damn hard.

Bill

Yo Vanilla,

I totally agree that bullet is a target... and do not advocate the spin. More of an observation that some of these kids are making a living... like Abbott... with less than ideal spin... but absolutely great speed. I'd have to say that in the video I've seen of you... and a couple pitches in Indiana... you are a really good spinner.

I'm not smarter than you... I'm just okay with admitting that I went to see Milli Vanilli for reasons other than girls.

We do agree on the drop. I'm not the kind of guy that's going to pick apart your words on a forum (just behind your back... j/k). I actually really enjoy your perspective and listening to your shared experiences.

Regarding the turning of the wrist... IMO, it's part of the whip... good whip with top spin, that is. Wrist/forearm cues simply change the position of the hand on the ball... in relation to how it's released. Sadly there are kids throwing Smith's jumping rise with top spin... kinda sad really.

Never heard of the PCM... kind of a dope ring to it... always thought being in the mafia would be an interesting gig.

I assume that one of the things we really agree on is the importance of spin... I think I've dissected the whip and regurgitate that stuff a little more technical... but at the end of the day, I think we're shooting for the same result.

I cannot imagine what Tupac said before his death... but I know that he said something the first time he was shot like... "5 shots couldn't stop me..." Ironically... it was 4 shots that did. My wife tells me (she listened to that junk) that his last words rhymed with "truck stew"... hope that's not what you were after...

Hillhouse · Jun 26, 2016

Java, I'm out of musical references for you... sorry man. And by the way, if you don't think, at 16 going to see Milli Vanilli for a girl is a good reason then maybe you''re not the genius this board thinks you are. LOL

The PCM is a name I made up about 10 years ago. Long before the "IR" revolution. I never heard of IR... I just called it pitching. But the PCM (Pitching coach Mafia) is the group of coaches who refuse to open their eyes to reality of pitching and continue with Hello Elbow, slam the door, etc. even though it's been proven to be unnatural to the body. I believe these people are a criminal enterprise, like the mob, and should be locked up for racketeering and stealing people's money. There are far too many of these coaches to name on here, and I'd have no shame in doing it but I can't just single a few out. But they should be locked up under the federal RICO laws. But just like the Russian Mob, Italian Mob, etc. there will always be customers for what they sell.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the whip and wrist turn. I don't see how they can go together.

Bill

Perfect Circle · Jun 26, 2016

Speaking of Music.... Me & DD work on getting the Harmony of this song together on Sundays

https://youtu.be/okrLLn-wNTU

I have posted before about the pitch'es of a Pitch.... here is DD's "the progression". Kept under 10min... per Attention spans. This is what me & my genius friend work on. He can compose video game sound tracks as they play. He does "scores" for her pitches....

5yrs old thur 25yrs old

Anyways back to crops....

Ken B · Jun 26, 2016

Perfect Circle said:
Speaking of Music.... Me & DD work on getting the Harmony of this song together on Sundays

https://youtu.be/okrLLn-wNTU

Check out this rendition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg2DpMWLmeE

FiveFrameSwing · Jun 26, 2016

I give my hitters a choice of music to hit to. They are free to select either type of music. "Country" or "Western".

Perfect Circle · Jun 27, 2016

Ken B said:
Check out this rendition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg2DpMWLmeE

Nice !!! "never old and always growing"

I sing: that's the way love grows !!!

Ken B · Dec 10, 2016

coach james said:
Dude..... your way overdressed to throw a self respecting curve ball!!!!
LOL just kidding, but seriously Bud, lets get you in some Under Armour pants and a hoodie quick

Finally got a hoodie! I feel like a hoodlum! Still working on some updated sweat pants! I'm REALLY overdue!

Ken B · Mar 5, 2019

Bump for D

ELKAHOLIC · Mar 11, 2019

I just read all of this thread! it's greatness! Just more proof (there is more than one way to skin a cat!)

My RHP daughter never could spin the ball 12-6. She started at age 11. I fought with her about it for 2 years.
When she went to a new PC, (at 13) that told me, (don't worry about it. Lets work with what she does well.) Everything started getting better. She threw more of a bullet spin.

Her flip change was not a perfect 12-6, but when we quit worrying about that, it got better. She started selling it. and it has a natural outward curve movement. it works well for her.
She learned a screwball it was fair when she spun it right. Then the curve. This pitch was almost a natural pitch for her. It was nasty and she lived on it for more than a year. Later she started throwing the backdoor or inside curve. Again it was nasty and very natural for her. This is about the time she stopped throwing a (fastball)
I then tried to get her to throw some kind of drop until I was blue in the face. She tried all kinds. She hated it. She wanted to work on a rise. I fought against that until I finally just gave in.

Very quickly she developed a great rise. At lessons she draws crowds, coaches and other pitchers wanting to see it. Again it just comes natural for her because shes different.
It has more than doubled her K's. As it turns out her rise has made her screw work way better. Fastball for her is the (F word ) she doesn't use it. She has always mixed speeds well.

She is doing great! She had a great fall on a top level team, racking up K's and getting mostly weak pop up's against top level 16u teams across the country. She still doesn't have a drop she is comfortable with, but she is getting lots of looks and camp invites from college coaches and just got her first visit and offer, and a good one from a D2.

I did not think she would ever get to this level because she couldn't spin it 6-12. I actually begged her to quit pitching several times the first few years. Turns out she is as hard headed as me.

My point is, Girls are all different. What works for one may not work for others. As a hard headed dad that spends way to much time searching and lurking trying to figure it all out, I finally realized to let her excel at what she is good at instead of focusing on what is difficult for her. She loves pitching and loves the game.
I hope this post will help at least one Dad and DD.

Palm Up Curve

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cantletitgo

javasource

6-4-3 = 2

Hillhouse

Perfect Circle

Ken B

FiveFrameSwing

Banned

Perfect Circle

Ken B

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ELKAHOLIC

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