"Bring the body to the arm for BI"

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Sep 19, 2013
420
0
Texas
"Bring the body to the arm for BI." I did not Want to hijack the other thread. This a great point Java. So what r some drills the we can work on to accomplish this? There also seems to b different methods to drag the rear foot. Amanda rolls on top of her foot others do not. What is best?

My DD leaves her drag foot behind which I feel is part if the problem of the forearm pain. I think we also lose so much speed b/c of this.

Thanks for all your thought and ideas.
 
Last edited:

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Hey R,

Miss you guys, make sure you say hi to Chey for me. I look at that frame she put together every day.

Is she struggling with speed? I don't see proximity of the arm to body being an issue with Chey at all... so I don't think she really needs to focus on this.

What I do see... is an incredible pitcher/person that is starting to settle "in to comfortable" and not pushing the physical envelope anywhere near what she is capable of. Chey is a pure athlete... and she needs to recognize that and continue to push that envelope as much as she can. Couple of examples.... but before I do, I'd like to apologize for not immediately getting back to you. It's been a wild summer!

Degree of overlap and established lean are becoming minimal. Her posture has become more and more upright during the wind-up (prior to backwing). Take a look at Angela Tincher as a great example of what a wind-up with ZERO focus on style and 100% focus on establishing a forward lean looks like:

2mf0lqf.jpg


Now, take a look at Chey... and tell me who you think is moving forward... versus who is 'standing still'?

2uiyo3l.jpg


When you look at the two gifs above you can see how adding that twist subtracted from her conscious effort to engage the lean and the legs early... much earlier. Notice how Tincher starts with her center of gravity over her rear leg... and then note how it's a solid 2-3 feet forward of the rear leg by the time she reaches the top of her backswing. I added pauses in the video to assist you in seeing this and matched them to the same frames of Chey. The pauses are:

  1. Top of the "outswing" (glove and hand away from the body)
  2. Top of the backswing.
ALSO NOTICE: How Angela used bringing her glove and throwing arm OUT toward the catcher to pull her center of gravity forward. This creates a MUCH LONGER BACKSWING... without adding to the height, but SIGNIFICANTLY ADDING TO THE FORWARD MOMENTUM AND NEED TO GET OFF THE PLATE. This allows her lean to DEVELOP INTO A FALL... so that her legs are WAY OUT IN FRONT OF HER ARMS... because the forward momentum gives the legs no choice but to get out with urgency. IOW, Angela's center of gravity is beyond her front foot... prior to even starting the backswing!

Compare the amount of forward lean/momentum at each pause... it's very, very evident. Not harping on the girl, but you, me, and Chey all know that she is rockstar that is capable of much more momentum.

If she is looking at this... and wonders, "why is that important?"... take a look at what happens during the upswing for each pitcher.

First, Angela:

jzyzp3.jpg


Note what the commitment to establishing forward lean does for Angela... she DETACHES from the plate WAY BEFORE 3 o'clock. IOW, when the upswing has the ball pointing at the catcher, she already left the pitching plate.

Getting off the plate earlier UNWEIGHTS THE DRIVE LEG SOONER. AN UNWEIGHTED DRIVE LEG CAN GATHER FORWARD MUCH EASIER THAN ONE BEARING WEIGHT because it's already moving forward through space. Now... take a look at Chey:

ieijj7.jpg


Her drive foot (right foot) is still glued to the plate by the time the ball is overhead. Chey is an athlete... so she compensates for lack of forward detachment from the plate by reaching further out with the stride leg (like a split). This makes getting into a good posture much, much more difficult. For example... have her get in a stance with her feet spread way apart... and tell her on the count of three to sprint forward. It's impossible to do so efficiently.

Looking at this, take a look at how Angela does not need to do a split because her PREMOTION MOMENTUM ALLOWED HER TO GET OFF THE PLATE SOONER. Look at where Angela is in the 8-foot circle... and note how much her rear leg (knee) has already started moving forward. Chey finally detaches while Angela is a solid 2 feet off of the rubber. This is why Angela... a 5'6" (or 7") firecracker could hit the big 70... she used every bit of athleticism that her very athletic frame allowed for... something Chey can, and SHOULD do.

So... yes, she's not getting stacked... but rather than have her work on getting stacked... I'd have her work on getting off the plate.

As far as drills... the Pushback is perfect... as are the wall sprints on the DM thread. I would also recommend that you turn the first gif into a drill for her. Download it... and have Chey copy it EXACTLY. Just go through this motion a thousand times... and when she gains control of that momentum... let her turn into a full pitch. From there... she be looking in the mirror the rest of the way.

I'd really like to see her junk that twisty Traina thing... and just get back to good old early lean development SOONER. Get off the plate sooner. Don't make up for lack of early momentum by doing a split with the stride leg. Add style once your physicality permits it... and only when it does not subtract from it. Once you've done those... getting stacked is a breeze.

You guys motivate me every time I see video of her pitching. She's a stud... keep working to be bigger, better, stronger, and more efficient than the rest of us... that kid is going places. Pitching is more than throwing a ball... get her doing the redcord routine, too! Pitching is power and speed... make sure that she's working on this when she's not on the field.

Wish you the best,
Mike
 
Last edited:
Mar 18, 2013
105
16
MN
Java thank you so much for your detailed response to the OP! There are so many golden nuggets to take from this post - I've read through it four times and keep finding new info each time through! I've been trying to explain to my dd about overlap and lean/drive etc. and stumbling through it knowing I'm not making much sense to her. I'm going to have her read through it later a couple times - this is what I really want to focus on during the off season to gain some velocity and being able to see the video will be so helpful. Thanks again!!
 
Sep 19, 2013
420
0
Texas
First of all, thank you for responding and no need to apologize. I know that you are busy. Chey and I are very grateful that you even respond. Finding this website has truly been a blessing for us as we have met some incredible people who are so giving!

"Is she struggling with speed?" What I meant by this is that I feel she needs to get faster in order to keep the batters off balance. She is very effective with the speed she has now but I also see so much potential in speed that is lost in her mechanics.

It totally makes sense what your are saying about the pre-motion. You certainly make things so easily obvious. We have been working some on the "Texas 2 Step and the pushback drills but not nearly enough. We will have to make it a priority! She has gotten better but we need to push more so that we can get as explosive as Angela Tincher. Now at least she can see where she needs to be. When we make some progress on this, we will post a video.

Thanks you for all the kind words. We miss you guys as well. It was a special time for us!
 
Jul 12, 2008
159
0
Tuscola, IL
Hey R,

Miss you guys, make sure you say hi to Chey for me. I look at that frame she put together every day.

Is she struggling with speed? I don't see proximity of the arm to body being an issue with Chey at all... so I don't think she really needs to focus on this.

What I do see... is an incredible pitcher/person that is starting to settle "in to comfortable" and not pushing the physical envelope anywhere near what she is capable of. Chey is a pure athlete... and she needs to recognize that and continue to push that envelope as much as she can. Couple of examples.... but before I do, I'd like to apologize for not immediately getting back to you. It's been a wild summer!

Degree of overlap and established lean are becoming minimal. Her posture has become more and more upright during the wind-up (prior to backwing). Take a look at Angela Tincher as a great example of what a wind-up with ZERO focus on style and 100% focus on establishing a forward lean looks like:

2mf0lqf.jpg


Now, take a look at Chey... and tell me who you think is moving forward... versus who is 'standing still'?

2uiyo3l.jpg


When you look at the two gifs above you can see how adding that twist subtracted from her conscious effort to engage the lean and the legs early... much earlier. Notice how Tincher starts with her center of gravity over her rear leg... and then note how it's a solid 2-3 feet forward of the rear leg by the time she reaches the top of her backswing. I added pauses in the video to assist you in seeing this and matched them to the same frames of Chey. The pauses are:

  1. Top of the "outswing" (glove and hand away from the body)
  2. Top of the backswing.
ALSO NOTICE: How Angela used bringing her glove and throwing arm OUT toward the catcher to pull her center of gravity forward. This creates a MUCH LONGER BACKSWING... without adding to the height, but SIGNIFICANTLY ADDING TO THE FORWARD MOMENTUM AND NEED TO GET OFF THE PLATE. This allows her lean to DEVELOP INTO A FALL... so that her legs are WAY OUT IN FRONT OF HER ARMS... because the forward momentum gives the legs no choice but to get out with urgency. IOW, Angela's center of gravity is beyond her front foot... prior to even starting the backswing!

Compare the amount of forward lean/momentum at each pause... it's very, very evident. Not harping on the girl, but you, me, and Chey all know that she is rockstar that is capable of much more momentum.

If she is looking at this... and wonders, "why is that important?"... take a look at what happens during the upswing for each pitcher.

First, Angela:

jzyzp3.jpg


Note what the commitment to establishing forward lean does for Angela... she DETACHES from the plate WAY BEFORE 3 o'clock. IOW, when the upswing has the ball pointing at the catcher, she already left the pitching plate.

Getting off the plate earlier UNWEIGHTS THE DRIVE LEG SOONER. AN UNWEIGHTED DRIVE LEG CAN GATHER FORWARD MUCH EASIER THAN ONE BEARING WEIGHT because it's already moving forward through space. Now... take a look at Chey:

ieijj7.jpg


Her drive foot (right foot) is still glued to the plate by the time the ball is overhead. Chey is an athlete... so she compensates for lack of forward detachment from the plate by reaching further out with the stride leg (like a split). This makes getting into a good posture much, much more difficult. For example... have her get in a stance with her feet spread way apart... and tell her on the count of three to sprint forward. It's impossible to do so efficiently.

Looking at this, take a look at how Angela does not need to do a split because her PREMOTION MOMENTUM ALLOWED HER TO GET OFF THE PLATE SOONER. Look at where Angela is in the 8-foot circle... and note how much her rear leg (knee) has already started moving forward. Chey finally detaches while Angela is a solid 2 feet off of the rubber. This is why Angela... a 5'6" (or 7") firecracker could hit the big 70... she used every bit of athleticism that her very athletic frame allowed for... something Chey can, and SHOULD do.

So... yes, she's not getting stacked... but rather than have her work on getting stacked... I'd have her work on getting off the plate.

As far as drills... the Pushback is perfect... as are the wall sprints on the DM thread. I would also recommend that you turn the first gif into a drill for her. Download it... and have Chey copy it EXACTLY. Just go through this motion a thousand times... and when she gains control of that momentum... let her turn into a full pitch. From there... she be looking in the mirror the rest of the way.

I'd really like to see her junk that twisty Traina thing... and just get back to good old early lean development SOONER. Get off the plate sooner. Don't make up for lack of early momentum by doing a split with the stride leg. Add style once your physicality permits it... and only when it does not subtract from it. Once you've done those... getting stacked is a breeze.

You guys motivate me every time I see video of her pitching. She's a stud... keep working to be bigger, better, stronger, and more efficient than the rest of us... that kid is going places. Pitching is more than throwing a ball... get her doing the redcord routine, too! Pitching is power and speed... make sure that she's working on this when she's not on the field.

Wish you the best,
Mike

JAVA, first off thanks for all you do here it has been an immense help for myself and my DD and also the younger girls I am working with. The one question I have is do you think the overlap can happen with a young lady who pitches from her glove? My DD pitches from the glove because she feels it helps her hide her grip in college. But I do notice at times it is difficult to get the overlap you talk about. I would love to here you thoughts and if there any drills you can recommend for girls who do hide the ball. I have a 10 year old who hides the ball because she can't seem to control her back swing so she feels more comfortable pitching from the glove. To me I really have no preference either way. I have seen many very good pitchers both ways. Again thanks for your knowledge here.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
JAVA, first off thanks for all you do here it has been an immense help for myself and my DD and also the younger girls I am working with. The one question I have is do you think the overlap can happen with a young lady who pitches from her glove? My DD pitches from the glove because she feels it helps her hide her grip in college. But I do notice at times it is difficult to get the overlap you talk about. I would love to here you thoughts and if there any drills you can recommend for girls who do hide the ball. I have a 10 year old who hides the ball because she can't seem to control her back swing so she feels more comfortable pitching from the glove. To me I really have no preference either way. I have seen many very good pitchers both ways. Again thanks for your knowledge here.

bwalk,

Thanks for the positive feedback, really glad to be of help.

To answer your first question, yes. But it's much, much more difficult for them to feel. Cradling is the same thing as a backswing, minus extension at the elbow. So... delaying the cradle motion would be a requisite for getting the overlap.

For girls that can't control their backswing... this is due largely in part to their inability to establish forward momentum of the body... allowing their backswing to get too deep... almost always coming to a pause at the top of the backswing... and often getting their head over their heels. Many instructors teach a kid to abandon it... as they grow impatient with control... or simply don't know how to correct the kids timing. If they did correct her timing... and address the lower half get out from the plate... not only would the kid exhibit better control, but better speed.

If you go to the DM sticky... I believe the Pushback Drill starts on pg 15.... and I believe txNick tossed together a gif of that pitcher performing the motion with a "cradle and drop" on pg 17. This is as good as a drill as I could come up with for specifically teaching that motion. Overlap becomes a feel of established forward momentum, early... so that the legs get out before the hands do. That old myth of ball and leg out together is a killer for kids trying to develop this motion. Overlap is a feeling... for sure... and it really helps to train/practice with some form of a backswing. That pitcher was a cradle pitcher, too... and this is how she interpreted the drill once she played around with it a bit. I'm not a fan of long backswings in any shape or form when working with developing pitchers. Once a girl learns the feel, she can work on lessening the drop... to just a cradle... if she really has something to hide. Otherwise... all she is hiding is her potential... ;)

I do have a preference when working with younger (pre-college) students... because 100% of the time... I can get a kid with a backswing to maximize their overlap, their timing, and definitely their leg-drive.

Watch the video in this post... and then compare that to video of pitchers with backswings... like Abbott, Ueno, OSterman, Tincher, Finch, etc. (read: a few of the greats). They seemed to do well... and there was no doubt that they maximized their overlap, drive, and speed... which I believe are great goals to have when practicing/developing a high-level talent. Be sure to read BM's comments in that thread as well...

I was actually surprised to see that Hawkins made the change... but that's a discussion I should probably avoid! ;)
 
Jan 7, 2014
972
0
Western New York
The one question I have is do you think the overlap can happen with a young lady who pitches from her glove? My DD pitches from the glove because she feels it helps her hide her grip in college. But I do notice at times it is difficult to get the overlap you talk about. I would love to here you thoughts and if there any drills you can recommend for girls who do hide the ball. I have a 10 year old who hides the ball because she can't seem to control her back swing so she feels more comfortable pitching from the glove. To me I really have no preference either way. I have seen many very good pitchers both ways. Again thanks for your knowledge here.

Bwalk,

I couldn't find the cradling gif that Java referenced in his reply to you but Tatum Edwards came to my mind and I thought it might help...

f9nzlw.gif


CP
 
Sep 19, 2013
420
0
Texas
Thanks for the video CP.

Java, How does Tatum Edwards able to get such a smooth drag leg? It also appears that she drags the top of your shoe as soon as the drag foot drags. Does Angela Tincher do the same. Chey drags on the side of the big toe. Would it be better to drag on the top of the foot from the start? Does it cause her to start to get sideways which takes away from her drive?

Thanks!
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
R,

Tatum gets that smooth drag... by getting off of the plate early. Just like we talked about above.

Chey is overstriding... meaning she's doing a split in midair. It's a fascinating process... but biomechanically speaking... the hips will open to allow for this extra stride length. It's a compensation for either 1) taking the leg out too far - beyond normal range of motion, or 2) a lack of hip flexion. I don't suspect the latter with Chey.

I point that out... because this is why Chey drags on the side. You probably will have to get her to 'get her big toe nail dirty'. Take her to the beach... or a place with wet sand, pop the shoes/socks off and work on getting the big toe nail dirty... while keeping the side of the foot clean. Wet sand is great for leaving snail trails. As it stands now, she's leaving a Quasimodo trail... ;)

Rather than torture the poor kid... make sure you tell her to lessen the distance her legs split... or your efforts will be futile. No matter what, Chey needs to develop a much, much greater lean... SOONER... so that her legs get way out in front of her pitching arm. Delay the backswing as much as she can stand... giving her the time necessary to get into that forward lean/momentum. A good backswing never pauses at the top... and feels super rushed.

Chris,

Here you go, my friend:

1zgb6me.jpg


And here's the cradle and drop version of the Pushback:

16bjxcg.jpg
 

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