So called experts and their bad advice

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halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
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I cannot count how many times I have heard so called experts say 'Watch what the elite pitchers do and do that'. If those so called pitching experts would take notice, MANY times this is very bad advice, especially when it comes to timing questions / issues.

These pitchers everyone points to are Olympic calibur athletes and have tremendously aggressive stride lengths, stride speeds, etc. They also, a good part of that time, MUST make adjustments in their timing to accomodate those very aggressive parts.

If you note where their stride foot touches down, many times it is on the circle and sometimes a few inches beyond that. That is usually around 110% to 120% of their height. For a stride length that long, you have to make adjustments to things in your timing to accomodate these things

If the best explanation given to assist you is 'Watch what the elite pitchers do and do that', you really need to question the advice you just received.

I have heard a lot and read alot of good avice in my time. I have heard and read alot of bad advice too.

ANY ADVICE YOU RECEIVE SHOULD BE QUESTIONED BEFORE YOU APPLY IT TO YOUR KID.

If the best piece of advice you are given is 'Watch the elite pitchers and do what they do' , FORCE THEIR HAND and make them explain exactly WHY your 12-year-old or 17-year-old should pitch exactly like one of the elite pitchers they love to direct you to.
 
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Jan 27, 2010
516
16
I agree the younger less experienced students should not attempt to do as the elite pitchers, but I do believe they should watch them for motivation and inspiration. Many times younger pitchers try to copy the older pitchers they see at tournaments and I tell them they are not quite ready for all that yet.I also tell them the only one that starts at the top are "grave diggers" and they need to build from the ground up.Anyone that instructs should study the elite pitchers and know when to introduce certain aspects to the students. Your post offers very good advice. I don't agree with getting lawyers involved. Parents should do their homework before taking their DD to any instructor and accept responsibility for their decision.
 
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halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,681
0
BM,

Fist of all, this was not directed at any individual. It is directed at anyone giving such a ‘generic’ type of response in their advice they offer. Many times we are given less than adequate information to begin with and specific questions MUST be asked before any competent advice can be suggested. Some want to see a video before they give ANY advice, some will immediately give a piece of advice that might turn out to be the absolute WRONG advice once more information is given.

I specifically targeted timing issues in my post. It is not real likely that a younger pitcher and her parent would be able to spot EVERYTHING the elite pitchers are doing in their motions / mechanics, their timing of everything involved and their stride length.

What they WILL see clearly, is their stride length. I pointed out that in some cases this is in excess of 100% of the pitcher’s height. If they see that and try to duplicate it, they can get hurt. That will probably be the very first thing they try and do to ‘Do what the elite pitchers do’.

What they might not see is that that elite pitcher might be doing something that is breaking the rules to achieve that tremendous stride length.

Pitching instructors teaching unsafe mechanics that resulted in injuries have already been hauled to court! I am not saying anything new here. It has been a couple years since I have heard of it happening but it HAS happened.

The downswing occurs from 12:00 to 6:00. 1:00 to 1:30 is ‘just into the downswing’.

At 3:00, that is halfway through the downswing, ‘Well into the downswing’ not ‘just into the downswing’. Sometimes the ‘elite’ pitchers will be at 3:00 at landing foot touchdown but that is Olympic caliber athletes that HAVE made some type of adjustments to accommodate that.

My post was not directed at any person in particular, it was directed towards EVERYONE, myself included.

You, me and everyone else offering advice needs to make sure they have an adequate amount of information to base their advice on and they need to be able to elaborate and explain exactly why. If they cannot or will not do that, it should be considered a big red flag.

Hal
 
Nov 6, 2008
71
0
BM-

For what it’s worth, I checked with my son who is a practicing attorney about the possibility of someone successfully suing someone giving free advice in good faith on an internet forum such as this. As long as the advice is given is without commercial interest or given in conjunction with the promotion of a commercial interest, the provider of the advice could not be successfully sued. Additionally, proving the medical link between the advice given and the specific injury would be almost impossible.

Conversely, if the advice is given in the form of an instructional book or in the context of a paid lesson, a suit could be successfully filed. Again, proving the link between the advice and the injury remains problematic for the plaintiff.

BM, please consider staying on this forum. I have taught for many, many years and you have brought me usefull information that has expanded my knowledge base in the past year. My students are the better for it. Nobody is going to sue you – stay on here and continue to share so that we can better serve our young students.

Steve
 
May 11, 2009
279
0
I think everyone's points were made and taken. Can we please get back to teaching and learning before it all blows up again.

I need all the help I can get!! :)
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
So called experts and their bad advise........

BM,

Fist of all, this was not directed at any individual. It is directed at anyone giving such a ‘generic’ type of response in their advice they offer. Many times we are given less than adequate information to begin with and specific questions MUST be asked before any competent advice can be suggested. Some want to see a video before they give ANY advice, some will immediately give a piece of advice that might turn out to be the absolute WRONG advice once more information is given.

Mr. Skinner. considering no one has pointed to those "olympic pitchers" BUT ME in the last, oh say, couple of weeks.......I know exactly who you were addressing.........

Moving on........

I specifically targeted timing issues in my post. It is not real likely that a younger pitcher and her parent would be able to spot EVERYTHING the elite pitchers are doing in their motions / mechanics, their timing of everything involved and their stride length.

Yes you did address timing. Wrongly I might add in my "non-expert opinion".........I chose NOT to address what I consider "bad information" directly, but to let the poster know that efficiency and timing of the lead leg block is paramount to proper transfer mechanics.......And the position of the throwing arm MUST be in the right spot to take FULL advantage of the angular velocity created in the whipping loop, in order to turn that angular velocity into linear velocity through the block..........

What they WILL see clearly, is their stride length. I pointed out that in some cases this is in excess of 100% of the pitcher’s height. If they see that and try to duplicate it, they can get hurt. That will probably be the very first thing they try and do to ‘Do what the elite pitchers do’.

I've never heard of anyone being "hurt" by excessive stride lengths.......Except for the potential of a groin pull unjury because the lead leg is extended futher then the muslces in the legs can support, causing stress to the groin area. But that has nothing to do with the shoulder injury potential you spoke of.........Of course there are timing issues and deficiencies that will result from overstriding the whipping loop which kill the transfer mechanics created at block......

What they might not see is that that elite pitcher might be doing something that is breaking the rules to achieve that tremendous stride length.

I highly doubt "breaking the rules" motivated your thread about "so called experts bad advise".......Injury and resulting liability was the focus of your topic........Not "breaking the rules".........

Pitching instructors teaching unsafe mechanics that resulted in injuries have already been hauled to court! I am not saying anything new here. It has been a couple years since I have heard of it happening but it HAS happened.

I'm sure that if I told you to jump off a bridge without a parachute I'd be liable........I doubt "over striding" from copying the worlds best would fall into that catergory..........

The downswing occurs from 12:00 to 6:00. 1:00 to 1:30 is ‘just into the downswing’.

Yes is it.......And?

At 3:00, that is halfway through the downswing, ‘Well into the downswing’ not ‘just into the downswing’. Sometimes the ‘elite’ pitchers will be at 3:00 at landing foot touchdown but that is Olympic caliber athletes that HAVE made some type of adjustments to accommodate that.

Yes they have. The adjustment they've made is to make sure the downswing position of the throwing arm is in the right spot to take full advantage of the INSTANTANEOUS tranfer mechanics of the block. When the stride foot is "down early" or the throwing arm is late, say, close to the top of the circle, the lead leg block is turned into a "pulling post". Because the whipping loop is looking for LAST SECOND transfer of angular velocity to linear velocity......

My post was not directed at any person in particular, it was directed towards EVERYONE, myself included.

Then I'd suggest you film yourself more often and check the position of your throwing arm when the lead foot hits "PLANT"........Which is how you turn that ball going in a circle into that ball on a string with so much velocity.........

2zohmpf.gif


You, me and everyone else offering advice needs to make sure they have an adequate amount of information to base their advice on and they need to be able to elaborate and explain exactly why. If they cannot or will not do that, it should be considered a big red flag.

Hal

I can.......Can you?.........

There is a reason why MOST of the best pitchers in the world use mechanics that include proper timing of the throwing arm postion and lead leg plant.....And that timing is NOT to hit plant with your arm "JUST ENTERING THE DOWNSWING"..........Regardless of age.......

I guess I'll put it like this.......ANY pitching coach worth his own weight can close his eyes and listen for the timing of foot plant to release point to know if a pitcher is using transfer mechanics of the whip/block properly.........

One goes.......PLANT/SNAP.........The other goes PLANT.........POOF.........

One is Whip/Snap.......The other is Whip.........PULL.........

One is using the lead leg as a "whipping post".........The other is using the lead leg as a "pulling post".......

This one is "whip/snap"..........

dgkw9z.gif


Didn't you say she went on to sign an NLI?.........She (or you) doesn't seem to be worrried about injury with her arm position at plant AT 10 YEARS OLD.......

See if you can hear the timing of the plant/snap transfer mechanics IN YOUR 10yo student Hal..........



This young lady is a D1 PAC 10 Full Ride Pitcher.......

magl6e.gif


Wanna here it again?.......WHIP/SNAP.......NOT WHIP........PULL.........

Press "play" and close your eyes........You'll know it when you hear it.......



2 Pitchers.....One 10yo.....One 19yo......

"Whipping Post" approching 3:00.....vs. "Pulling Post" "just over the top" at plant.......

So called experts and their "bad" advise was the name of this thread right?.......:mad:
 
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Hitter

Banned
Dec 6, 2009
653
0
BM

You may know about this information already however I thought I would provide it in support of your views.

Thanks Howard

Descriptive Epidemiology of Collegiate Women's Softball Injuries: National Collegiate Athletic Association Injury Surveillance System, 1988?1989 Through 2003?2004
Shoulder injuries are another primary area of preventive concern for collegiate softball players. Although the results do not specify the number of shoulder injuries that can be categorized as chronic or overuse, shoulder strains and shoulder tendinitis were common chronic/overuse injuries that accounted for almost 10% of practice injuries ( Table 5). Furthermore, 5.5% of practice injuries resulting in 10+ days of activity time loss were attributable to shoulder tendinitis ( Table 6). A common misconception is that the windmill motion of softball pitching creates less stress on the arm than the overhead motion of baseball pitching does. However, the degree of shoulder distraction stress on elite softball pitchers during the 1996 Olympic Games averaged 80% ± 22% of their body weight (range = 50% to 149%), which is comparable to that of professional baseball players (mean = 108% ± 16% body weight, range = 83% to 139% body weight) and may put softball pitchers at risk for overuse injury. 14, 15 When 181 NCAA female pitchers were surveyed, 25% of their injuries were categorized as chronic/overuse shoulder injuries. 6 Pitch counts need to be more of a priority for coaches, pitchers, and certified athletic trainers, with an emphasis on the quality versus the quantity of pitches during practice. 6 Furthermore, position-specific interval throwing programs have been designed based on NCAA softball game data, field dimensions, common softball injuries, and general tissue-healing concepts. 16 These programs are not only important for rehabilitation but also may be a beneficial component of the conditioning regimens for all position players. 16
Finish First Insider, Issue #78

Let’s take a closer look at the shoulder and the rate of injury.
According to Meyers, 38% of all upper extremity injuries are specific to the shoulder in softball. When compared to the number of other injuries, shoulder injuries are currently the number one upper extremity injuries in softball. On that note, some sports media have claimed (anecdotal) that the fast pitch motion (underhand pitch) in softball is safer on the shoulder joint (than overhand). However, the research suggests that under- and over- hand throwing both add similar stress to the shoulder. (1,2,4) Nevertheless the majority of the stress for over hand throwing is in the deceleration movement (release portion of the throw) which puts the most stress on soft tissues and connective tissues involved in external rotation of the shoulder.(4)

In underhand throwing the majority of stress is in acceleration movement (windup of windmill pitching) and internal rotation.(4) Other interesting research involved the notion that softball players may be predisposed to injury due to the decreased joint position (flexibility) of the shoulder joint during external rotation. (1) Also mentions in the same article that a certain degree of looseness within the shoulder joint to compete at the higher levels. (1) Therefore if the joint is able to move in a more optimal degree of motion the athlete would have a decreased risk of injury.

Typically the locations of shoulder injuries are both on the anterior and posterior (front and back of shoulder), and signs/symptoms include joint pain, inflammation, instability, and increasing weakness due to overuse. Softball players are known for various muscle strains of the shoulder that would involve the trapezius, biceps, pectoralis and rotator cuff.(2,3)
The Pectoralis major is the shoulder’s power generator in both over and underhand throwing.(2) The muscles located anterior (front) of shoulder are mainly involved with the stabilization of the over hand and underhand throw. (2) The serratus anterior is involved in the synchronization of the shoulder in both forms of throwing also.(2) With knowledge of the anatomy of the shoulder and of the particular muscles that are affected by shoulder injuries, we are able to create a specialized injury prevention program.
 

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