Trying to learn IR - how far do I have to go?

sluggers said:

There is something we call "front side resistance." It means simply, "Stop yourself with your left leg. Don't move forward after you release the ball."

This is Whitney Canion. As a junior, Whitney was probably the best pitcher in the NCAA. She was amazing. Notice how far forward she moves after she releases the ball--*NONE*.

All the momentum you created leading up to release is transferred to the ball *IF* you stop yourself. You'll see a couple of MPH increase.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZI8_Ls3ZIeA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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I see. I love how much this forum can teach you if you know where to look. I've always been taught "close the hips" or to "end square with your target." Or as you guys would see it, finish 90°.

With that said, I should finish half of that... Almost facing third instead of home, since I'm a righty. Am I on the right track?


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peachyvolgirl said:

I see. I love how much this forum can teach you if you know where to look. I've always been taught "close the hips" or to "end square with your target." Or as you guys would see it, finish 90°.

With that said, I should finish half of that... Almost facing third instead of home, since I'm a righty. Am I on the right track?


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As you saw in the Youtube clip above of Whitney, the pitcher remained virtually open.

In the Steadman-Hawkins study the hip angle at release ranged from 18-to-87 degrees, with the average being 52-degrees.

Here's a look at the distribution.

FFS: So, according to you, Peachy has an IR pitching. Done and done!

But, anyone with even limited knowledge of IR knows that is not accurate.

Go back and read what you posted. You said, "This is what is referred to as IR on this website." Then you post a GIF from 9 to right before release. That is simply, completely *WRONG*.,

No one on this board has said that 9 to prior to release is IR. That is *NOT* the way IR is referred to on the board. It is not helpful to tell someone, "Oh, that is what everyone on this board means by IR" when that isn't true.

Internal rotation, from a strictly anatomical point of view, means simply, "rotation toward the inside of the body". The trouble is there is internal rotation everywhere in a good or bad pitching motion. "Slamming the door shut" is internal rotation. Simply rotating the entire arm is internal rotation. If you want to get hypertechnical, then yes, there is internal rotation in the GIF. Using that definition, though, saying someone uses internal rotation is meaningless...because everyone does it.

The GIF you posted is part, but not all of an IR pitching motion. The IR pitching motion actually includes some external rotation...when the ball goes up at 9, that is external rotation, not internal rotation.

The other way IR is used is to describe simply the pronation of the forearm during release. Again, your GIF didn't show that either. It stopped prior to release

In your second GIF, you show pronation. But, again, that is not what we are talking about.

This is the pronation that is used in IR pitching...which has quite a bit more pronation than what you show and what Peachy does.

I know you are new in the pitching section, but at least try to get up to speed before offering advice.



Peachy is a great person, and I admire her for working this out. She really impresses me with her desire to "get it right". We need to give her good, complete advice.

***

The Steadman-Hawkins study is not particularly helpful in 2015. It measured the pitchers at the 1996 Olympics, almost 20 years ago. While there were a few great pitchers at the 1996 Olympics (Michelle Smith and Lisa Fernadez, e.g.), there were also many average to poor pitchers using terrible mechanics.

So, sluggers, in short... What do I need to fix? Rotate the forearm even more? I'm not completely understanding. I'm sorry.


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I've never even had a conversation with Five... but I'm starting to notice that Sluggers is just pounding every post of his death... must be a special relationship they've formed over the years!

Peachy... one question for you: Are you seeking to improve your mechanics for your remaining year of eligibility or for your students?

I think you DO the motion pretty good. At times, it appears that you're missing the opportunity to maximize the whip... releasing the ball a little to much in the slot/out-front and not getting your front-side set... so your backside can be an adder. I/R is no doubt the vehicle, and you've a decent working example. Powering that vehicle is about resistance, timing, and force production inward, as well. Example... if my torso is moving forward WHILE I'm trying to forcefully adduct my arm into it... the output is less than optimal.

This said... your goal to work on it - to teach it properly - is very commendable. Kudos. Remember... doing it does not make you a good teacher... so spend time learning to recognize some of the stuff that kids commonly do to make the i/r motion less than optimal. Been awfully busy lately, but I intend on posting a few videos in the near future regarding common issues I see while teaching I/R and pitching in general... in hopes that it may help the community.

As far as what I/R is on this site... the best words on the subject are available in the two stickies (I/R classroom, Internal Rotation).

Sluggers... questions for you... hopefully you can respond without bashing me... because I was actually surprised to read some of your comments.

You said:

No one on this board has said that 9 to prior to release is IR. That is *NOT* the way IR is referred to on the board. It is not helpful to tell someone, "Oh, that is what everyone on this board means by IR" when that isn't true.

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So, what is I/R... as it is referred to on this board? I read the rest of your post... but you just go on about anatomical stuff and FFS bashing. When should I/R of the HUMERUS actually happen? Before 9?

You said:

"Slamming the door shut" is internal rotation.

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I've read this numerous times... with an open mind and all... and I genuinely fail to see how transverse plane rotation of the entire torso is internal rotation? By that standard... I guess you could call it external rotation.. if you're watching the glove shoulder??? I find it sorta odd that you're telling Five he's clueless... when you're writing those kind of statements...

You said:

The IR pitching motion actually includes some external rotation...when the ball goes up at 9, that is external rotation, not internal rotation.

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So...let me try to understand this... the INTERNAL ROTATION MOTION ACTUALLY INCLUDES EXTERNAL ROTATION???!!! Sorry, man... I really have no clue how that is possible. I can get to 9 o'clock just fine without ever externally rotating my hand. In the world of teaching... I would rather a girl NOT externally rotate AT ALL during the pitch. Are you suggesting that we teach a kid to externally rotate the forearm at 9?

You said (in an earlier post):

Peachy does have some part of an IR pitching motion, however she does not have complete IR because she doesn't pronate the forearm.

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In all seriousness... we must be watching a different set of videos. For a larger selection of pitches... it might help to look at the original post. I think the 2nd pitch is pretty decent (in terms of pronation).

For the record... I'm just trying to talk about this... so let's not turn it into something personal.

Happy 4th of July, DFP!!!

javasource said:

I've never even had a conversation with Five... but I'm starting to notice that Sluggers is just pounding every post of his death... must be a special relationship they've formed over the years!

Peachy... one question for you: Are you seeking to improve your mechanics for your remaining year of eligibility or for your students?

I think you DO the motion pretty good. At times, it appears that you're missing the opportunity to maximize the whip... releasing the ball a little to much in the slot/out-front and not getting your front-side set... so your backside can be an adder. I/R is no doubt the vehicle, and you've a decent working example. Powering that vehicle is about resistance, timing, and force production inward, as well. Example... if my torso is moving forward WHILE I'm trying to forcefully adduct my arm into it... the output is less than optimal.

This said... your goal to work on it - to teach it properly - is very commendable. Kudos. Remember... doing it does not make you a good teacher... so spend time learning to recognize some of the stuff that kids commonly do to make the i/r motion less than optimal. Been awfully busy lately, but I intend on posting a few videos in the near future regarding common issues I see while teaching I/R and pitching in general... in hopes that it may help the community.

As far as what I/R is on this site... the best words on the subject are available in the two stickies (I/R classroom, Internal Rotation).

Sluggers... questions for you... hopefully you can respond without bashing me... because I was actually surprised to read some of your comments.

You said:

So, what is I/R... as it is referred to on this board? I read the rest of your post... but you just go on about anatomical stuff and FFS bashing. When should I/R of the HUMERUS actually happen? Before 9?

You said:

I've read this numerous times... with an open mind and all... and I genuinely fail to see how transverse plane rotation of the entire torso is internal rotation? By that standard... I guess you could call it external rotation.. if you're watching the glove shoulder??? I find it sorta odd that you're telling Five he's clueless... when you're writing those kind of statements...

You said:

So...let me try to understand this... the INTERNAL ROTATION MOTION ACTUALLY INCLUDES EXTERNAL ROTATION???!!! Sorry, man... I really have no clue how that is possible. I can get to 9 o'clock just fine without ever externally rotating my hand. In the world of teaching... I would rather a girl NOT externally rotate AT ALL during the pitch. Are you suggesting that we teach a kid to externally rotate the forearm at 9?

You said (in an earlier post):

In all seriousness... we must be watching a different set of videos. For a larger selection of pitches... it might help to look at the original post. I think the 2nd pitch is pretty decent (in terms of pronation).

For the record... I'm just trying to talk about this... so let's not turn it into something personal.

Happy 4th of July, DFP!!!

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Hi again! To answer your question, I'm trying to learn so I can teach my students. As badly as I want to, I can only laugh at the thought of going back to play college. 30 pounds was easy to gain... Not so easy to lose, ya know? Lol. I miss the game incredibly but to be honest, I got pounded in college. I had good movement but my speed wasn't there. It'd be nice to figure out why that was so but mostly I'm just here for my kids. Would it be nice to fix it and walk on somewhere? YES! Probable? No. Lol. I've been soaking up this IR stuff as much as possible so I can not only do it to show them but to genuinely understand it and fix them.


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peachyvolgirl said:

So, sluggers, in short... What do I need to fix? Rotate the forearm even more? I'm not completely understanding. I'm sorry.


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Yes Sluggers, specifically, what does she need to fix relative to the IR that is being taught?

Peachy ... there are elements that could be improved, but in terms of basic IR, you have it.

In the frame immediately upon release you are pronating more than BM does in his example.

javasource said:

I've never even had a conversation with Five... but I'm starting to notice that Sluggers is just pounding every post of his death... must be a special relationship they've formed over the years!

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No relationship that I'm aware of.

Begs the question why Sluggers let this go in the 2nd post in this thread.

JJsqueeze said:

The I/R part actually looks good, I wouldn't be surprised if you always pitched like that though, a lot of pitchers have what we call I/R in their motion here but they think they are doing something entirely different. Do you have any video from before you started "trying" to convert.

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FiveFrameSwing said:

No relationship that I'm aware of.

Begs the question why Sluggers let this go in the 2nd post in this thread.

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Probably because he sensed the encouraging aspect of my comment was not really designed as a technical analysis but a general "hey you are doing the basics" but when you GIF it, it kind of seems like you are putting it up as a model, which it isn't.

I am shocked Java said nothing about the drive though....

We create GIFs all the time to help point out observations. It often allows conversations to be better targeted and narrow down to a common area of discussion. A large number of GIFs here at DFP are not put "up as a model".

But I agree with you ... "The I/R part actually looks good".