Turnover drop?

Maybe what FFS is saying is that a four seam fastball is a Precursor to the peel drop. But some fastballs like the bullet spin fastball is not the same thing as a drop ball. What makes a drop ball unique, is tight 12/6 spin, thrown low in the zone, with a slightly body forward release. BH would also say released a fraction earlier than the other pitches.

Regarding the hand "gyrations" after release, that is just a by product of good IR mechanics upstream. If you look at Ueno's hand after release, it floats around like a butterfly (and is not being forced into any one position).

Rocketech1 said:

Maybe what FFS is saying is that a four seam fastball is a Precursor to the peel drop. But some fastballs like the bullet spin fastball is not the same thing as a drop ball. What makes a drop ball unique, is tight 12/6 spin, thrown low in the zone, with a slightly body forward release. BH would also say released a fraction earlier than the other pitches.

Regarding the hand "gyrations" after release, that is just a by product of good IR mechanics upstream. If you look at Ueno's hand after release, it floats around like a butterfly (and is not being forced into any one position).

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Makes sense. I would also agree with FFS that folks would be much better off not using the term FB as it describes only speed and has no context in terms of movement. While bullet spin may upon occasion be effective I see it as a significant mechanic defect, not a pitch.

Rocketech1 said:

Maybe what FFS is saying is that a four seam fastball is a Precursor to the peel drop. But some fastballs like the bullet spin fastball is not the same thing as a drop ball. What makes a drop ball unique, is tight 12/6 spin, thrown low in the zone, with a slightly body forward release. BH would also say released a fraction earlier than the other pitches.

Regarding the hand "gyrations" after release, that is just a by product of good IR mechanics upstream. If you look at Ueno's hand after release, it floats around like a butterfly (and is not being forced into any one position).

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It is true that not all FBs are taught the same. Many years ago I had a pitching session with Nancy Evans, and she was teaching a bullet spin FB. Her reasoning was that this was easier to progress to a riseball.

By in large, I generally see the FB instructed with dropball spin. It is why folks like Mike White try to convince those they instruct to drop the term FB from their vocabulary and instead work on a pitch with the dropping action.

Out in Left Field said:

If that is not enough, over time, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that forcing or overusing young kids with this palm down or into a rollover curve/drop/drop curve thing, no matter when it happens or why, is leading to strain on tendons. Even Marc has a post about it. Finally, if you don't think the current issues in college pitching on display in the regionals (inability to find zone) is due to some of this, well...

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Anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Would welcome evidence that leans more towards "scientific evidence" ... if you have any.

Not sure what is being inferred with the remark "Even Marc has a post about it." Is the inference that Marc is 'slow' and generally the last to catch on?

In any event, supporting data to back up assertions would be appreciated.

She is no longer pitching for the team as it goes to TB. (She does not come to our clinics.)




Hmmm

FFS has apparently read 1984 and has fallen in love with newspeak. Yesterday FFS wanted to stop the use of the term "dropball". Now, he wants to stop the use of the term "fastball". FFS also wants to stop the use of the phrases "sun rise", since technically the sun doesn't rise, but appears due to the rotation of the earth.

Anyway, there is just so much misinformation in this thread the whole thing is toxic. It is almost like people are checking their common sense at the door.

So, back to basics:

To throw a movement pitch, you put lots of spin on the ball. The more spin, the more movement you get. The less spin, the less movement you get. The downside of movement is that the greater the movement, the more difficult it is to throw a strike. If a pitcher wants to throw the ball to a very specific location, she uses a pitch with reduced spin.

So, when a pitcher throws a fastball, the pitcher is not attempting to put significant spin on the ball. When a pitcher tries to throw a movement pitch, she tries to put a lot of spin on the ball.

Let's at look at some data. Attached is PITCH F/X data from the 2011 CWS. pfx_z is the vertical movement of the pitch compared to a pitch with zero spin.

Most pitches were thrown with less than 5 inches of vertical movement. There are a whole lot of pitches with much, much more movement than 5 inches. There are some pitches thrown with down movement from 10 to 20 inches and up movement from 10 to 18 inches. The pitchers are doing something to make the ball move a lot.

Another chart shows spin rate. Most pitches were thrown with spin rates of 16RPS. Then, there were some pitches that were thrown with RPS of 32RPS and higher topspin.

It is stupid to say a pitch thrown with 10RPS is the same as a pitch thrown with 32RPS. The difference in movement is more than a foot. So, to call a pitch with 10RPS a "drop" and a pitch with 32 RPS a drop is doing disservice to everyone.

They are not the same, they use different mechanics.

Bottom line: Some pitchers are making the ball drop a whole lot more than other pitchers.

PEEL VS. ROLLOVER

Technically, there is no "peel" drop and there is no "rollover" drop. There is a continuum between the two, based on pronation of the arm during release. Some pitchers (mostly newbies) throw a drop without any arm pronation. The really good drop pitchers have very quick, pronounced arm pronation.

FOLLOW THROUGH

Like in any athletic physical action, the follow through on a drop is not forced. The follow through results from the movement of the body prior to release. For a good drop ball, the arm is pronating very quickly, so the arm continues to pronate after release as the arm slows down. Good right handed drop ball pitchers usually end up with fingers down and the palm facing 3B.

4 SEAM vs. 2 SEAM

You guys are chasing unicorns. In softball, there is no difference between the two pitchers. There may be a difference in perception by the batter, but the movement doesn't change.

sluggers said:

FFS has apparently read 1984 and has fallen in love with newspeak. Yesterday FFS wanted to stop the use of the term "dropball". Now, he wants to stop the use of the term "fastball". FFS also wants to stop the use of the phrases "sun rise", since technically the sun doesn't rise, but appears due to the rotation of the earth.

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Sluggers, I only got this far before concluding that you are a blatant liar.

Please point me to the post in which I suggest the term "dropball" not be used.

sluggers said:

So, back to basics:

To throw a movement pitch, you put lots of spin on the ball. The more spin, the more movement you get. The less spin, the less movement you get. The downside of movement is that the greater the movement, the more difficult it is to throw a strike. If a pitcher wants to throw the ball to a very specific location, she uses a pitch with reduced spin.

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Yes, let's get down to basics.

Throwing a movement pitch does not excuse a pitcher from not locating their pitch. A pitcher is expected to work on mastering each pitch to the point that they can reasonably locate it.

Here is an interesting thought that has been percolating a little w/regards to the turnover Sluggers. Do you think the there is a role that the brush plays in compacting the pronation like you described so that the fingers are on the topside of the ball coming into brush and then the brush helps accelerating a cutting action over the top of the ball? I hadn't ever though of a drop this way until I saw Rich Balswick demonstrate the release for the drop. I haven't had DD play with this yet because I have not been able to see this action with Cat or other top notch dropballers but since your DD was a dropballer I was wondering what you thought.

JJsqueeze said:

Here is an interesting thought that has been percolating a little w/regards to the turnover Sluggers. Do you think the there is a role that the brush plays in compacting the pronation like you described so that the fingers are on the topside of the ball coming into brush and then the brush helps accelerating a cutting action over the top of the ball? I hadn't ever though of a drop this way until I saw Rich Balswick demonstrate the release for the drop. I haven't had DD play with this yet because I have not been able to see this action with Cat or other top notch dropballers but since your DD was a dropballer I was wondering what you thought.

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Bold above ..... that is my viewpoint. It is why I like to use the cue of "hand inside the ball" ..... referenced to pre-6-o'clock.



Edited to also add:

This portion below, of Sluggers earlier post, was correct. It is why you want what is referred to as 'IR' at this website along with what is sometimes referred to as 'brush assisted whip'. Having the 'hand inside the ball' (above) helps set that up for success.

sluggers said:

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The really good drop pitchers have very quick, pronounced arm pronation.

[.....]

For a good drop ball, the arm is pronating very quickly

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