IR vs Bullet

I love what u just wrote! It really hit home right now! My dd is trying to be so controlled with her movements, it's robbing her if speed and fluidity. She trying to control too much of her movement to be perfect. When she practicing at home and daddy is catching for her she can let go and just throw, but it's a different kid when she gets in a game. I'm hoping more time in the circle will give her more confidence to just let go and trust it.


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Man10 said:

I think the biggest thing she lacks in the list you mentioned is the ball forward at 12 and the palm up at 9. She shows the third base side the ball at those two spots. How do those two positions help IR? Obviously they do, just asking to try to add understanding. Also what would be the drawbacks of her not having those positions? Are there indicators such as missing right or left, etc that tells me her hand isn't in those positions?

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The ball being pointed toward third at 9:00 leads to an early unloading of the arm and causes a pitcher to completely miss the whip at 6:00 and end up "pushing" the ball through the release. Sometimes, a pitcher will try to re-orientate the ball into the correct position sometime between 9:00 and 6:00 (If I recall, your DD was doing this, trying to bring the ball into the correct position somewhere between 8:00 and 7:00), but they will usually fail to fully catch the whip or at best a partial whip. It won't have that magic feel that a true whip has.

Because of biomechanics, if the palm is not up at the 9:00 position, the elbow cannot completely lead through the 9:00 to 6:00 motion.

As for missing to the right or left, those are often timing issues if everything else is generally correct (left or right misses have a lot of causes). HE style pitching is popular because it is easy to teach beginners. They only have to worry about up and down misses generally speaking. Learning a whip, you are going to miss every which way possible at times. Generally speaking, if a whip pitcher misses, it is going to tend to be down and to the pitching hand side, so down and to the right for a RHP.

DNeeld said:

The ball being pointed toward third at 9:00 leads to an early unloading of the arm and causes a pitcher to completely miss the whip at 6:00 and end up "pushing" the ball through the release. Sometimes, a pitcher will try to re-orientate the ball into the correct position sometime between 9:00 and 6:00 (If I recall, your DD was doing this, trying to bring the ball into the correct position somewhere between 8:00 and 7:00), but they will usually fail to fully catch the whip or at best a partial whip. It won't have that magic feel that a true whip has.

Because of biomechanics, if the palm is not up at the 9:00 position, the elbow cannot completely lead through the 9:00 to 6:00 motion.

As for missing to the right or left, those are often timing issues if everything else is generally correct (left or right misses have a lot of causes). HE style pitching is popular because it is easy to teach beginners. They only have to worry about up and down misses generally speaking. Learning a whip, you are going to miss every which way possible at times. Generally speaking, if a whip pitcher misses, it is going to tend to be down and to the pitching hand side, so down and to the right for a RHP.

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Judging from that, I'm thinking the show it and throw it drill may be the best drill for is to work on at the moment. You agree with that?

In my opinion, show it and throw it is the best drill in pitching, period. But yes, that and reverse chaining will help as well.

Man10 said:

This helps a lot. internal rotation happens but it's best to happen just before release, if I'm reading this right.
If I video her in slo mo what would be the check points to see if she is catching the whip and throwing correctly?

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My concern is that you're overthinking whip, or trying to orchestrate it. Set up the conditions then allow it to happen. Drilling has it's purpose, but only if the goal for what to feel is clear.

I've seen Hawkins' rise ball in slo-mo and it's definitely spinning backwards. Carda's I'm not sure since I haven't seen good slo-mo clips but it does seem to move a lot (and she throws it around 70, so there is that ).

Ken B said:

My concern is that you're overthinking whip, or trying to orchestrate it. Set up the conditions then allow it to happen. Drilling has it's purpose, but only if the goal for what to feel is clear.

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I'm new at this how do you set up the conditions for it?

Pull the lower arm/ball into a upper arm lock at the torso and let the ball fly out of the hand. Do this into a net until you see it happening consistently. To be fair, there are so many other factors that come come into play, that it's really difficult to provide a perfect roadmap without seeing a kid in person. If you don't mind, posting videos on the forum as often as you have a question is really the best way to go. You might also try the PM method, but keep in mind that most PC's are swamped. Be assertive, ask around and hopefully you find someone with time to put some focus on your path.

First off, it's really, really cool to see all of you helping this cat out. Kudos to you all, especially Corlay... sorta have a natural affinity to him... and it's really cool to see a parent I work with dropping all this knowledge.

Backchaining is one of the most critical pieces, IMO. It's a motion you can over-analyze... and should take slow... building fluidity in the movement as she learns through repetitions. I find that corrections to the backchaining process are where a lot of success is found... partly because you get two reps for the price of one. Secondly, these are progressive movements... which is easily the best and only wide-scale method of teaching the right articulations of these athletic movements to the masses.

If you use the list Corlay posted, find where your DD is "broken"... and spend your time with the drill progression that passes through that point during the backchain... the correction will take place.

That said... detail is important... but you must sort out that stuff BEFORE trying to get your DD to do it. Make a list of the movements... know their order in the sequence, learn them yourself, and teach them backwards. Know the stuff in your sleep... and set attainable goals for a single session. Every quality throw your DD makes underhand is a determination of the QUALITY time you spent on the lesser progressions. Sure some kids just whip it... but the I/R threads are for the other 99.99% of the world. The classroom thread is succinct... print it, read it, highlight parts, write down questions, read it again, answer your questions, etc...

It's the same thing with drive mechancs, too. Learn front side resistance first... it's the last movement. You can drive out like Monica or Cat... but if you do so on a limp-noodled leg... all is for naught.

Anyway... really cool to hear this community all 'pitching' in to help a brother out. Best, JS