Riseball versus the Swing Plane

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May 26, 2013
372
18
Ramstein Germany
I noticed one of our posters started up the dreaded "Does a Riseball Rise?" topic...again. Thought I'd throw my two-cents in but not in a manner that has been discussed before. What is a riseball and why is it the seemingly be-all end-all pitches for softball players? The answer is...the swing plane. Most pitches thrown match the natural swing plane of a batter. Even curves still come down at an angle that allows a batter to match the plane of the ball moving through space. But a rise ball? Not a chance, it's downward arc will happen behind the batter/catcher/umpire.

So a batter has two problems when facing a pitcher who can throw with authority both the rise and the drop. Number one problem is identifying the pitch in midflight or just guessing if the ball will break downward or not. Two, timing a swing to meet the riseball at a specific point in time and space. On all other pitches you can be a hair late or early and still get good contact, not so with a rise because of the swing plane mismatch. I remember watch a video of Mike Candrea once explaining his team's strategy in facing a riseball pitcher..."We teach our girls to identifying the pitch and not swing at them." He also mentioned getting as far back in the box as possible so the pitch is out of the strike zone.

The riseball is a great pitch because of the swing plane mismatch.


Rise Ball Swing Plane.JPG
 

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Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
In the diagram, why are the release points different between a rise ball and drop ball?

And does there exist video that confirms the trajectories in the diagrams (ie, that a rise ball or any pitch continues to gain altitude in a straight line from pitcher to batter?
 
Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
I'm not a fan of trying to change a swing plane mid pitch. My perspective is, if we know a specific pitcher and we all know her go to pitch is a rise. Then we'll keep our hands high, and pay closer attention to our front elbow, ensuring it's higher than our hands at contact, to prevent pop ups.
I ask my players to look for 3 things on every single pitch....speed, spin, and location. Do this while your stretching. Picking up spin direction is difficult and needs to be practiced..... a lot!
IMO, it's easier to study a pitchers delivery. Most of them will have subtle differences between pitches. Try to see those as well. If she's way back behind vertical and the ball is as low as her knee, as she's coming through...odds are it's a rise. Either comitt to stopping your swing and lay off, or look for that location to be up in the zone and attack it.
But I wouldn't ask a batter to swing on more of a downward plane, just to meet the ball at the same angle of the pitch. Keep the same tilt and angle as all other pitches, but do it with higher hands and elbow.
 
May 26, 2013
372
18
Ramstein Germany
Some would argue that the rise has a lower release point. Watch some of Rick Pauly's videos on the drop and rise. The waist is a pivot point, with a drop there is a hinge movement forward, effectively getting on top of the ball while on a rise the pitcher hinges back getting under the ball. I wouldn't get carried away on a specific release point.

Does a rise ball rise? Again, not really relevant, what is important is that the ball moves from bottom to top through the strike zone, a plane of travel opposite of the bat's plane of travel. Cat Osterman throws a bullet spin rise ball, she's not the only one either. This should tell you all you need to know. What is important is the angle through the strike zone.
 
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Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
In the diagram, why are the release points different between a rise ball and drop ball?

And does there exist video that confirms the trajectories in the diagrams (ie, that a rise ball or any pitch continues to gain altitude in a straight line from pitcher to batter?
The rise does drop, but only a small fraction of the amount the others do.....
It's an optical illusion. Your brain has seen 100 thousand pitches drop over the years a certain amount. Now all of a sudden, it doesn't drop, and looks as if it's climbing. Added with the lower trajectory and thrown at an upward angle....it's a very difficult pitch to handle.
I've gotten my hat knocked off my head a few times while catching pitchers, and I'm the one who called the pitch! I knew damn well what was coming and still had trouble with it.
 
May 26, 2013
372
18
Ramstein Germany
I'd bet your right Coach James about HS pitchers having their rises drop a bit, but, in college, especially D1, maybe not so much if at all. As far as swing planes go, you can flatten out your swing plane but that's about it. Certainly I wasn't advocating a different swing plane, only explaining why a rise ball is so difficult to hit. We spend a great deal of time learning to hit with correct swing plane (thank you Rick Pauly). No one in our league (DODEA HS Europe) throws a rise ball. But understand the chart, a good power rise ball pitcher will have their pitch moving opposite of a batter's swing plane. Hands high will only flatten out the batter's plane and that's if they stay straight up. Once a pitcher sees that you'll get a steady dose of drop balls.
 
Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48
I remember watch a video of Mike Candrea once explaining his team's strategy in facing a riseball pitcher..."We teach our girls to identifying the pitch and not swing at them." He also mentioned getting as far back in the box as possible so the pitch is out of the strike zone.

With the lowered strike zone at the collegiate level, if you can recognize the pitch as a rise ball, you should lay off of it unless you have two strikes on you or you are expecting a rise ball and can drive it hard.

Your second point what Candrea said is flawed logic. The strike zone NEVER changes no matter where you stand in the box. You could lay down in the batters box and it doesn't change the strike zone. Also, if you stand all the way in the back if the batters box, good pitchers will adjust and start throwing drop balls to the front of the strike zone. Lastly, if you set-up all the way in the back of the box, how do you know they will be throwing a rise ball or any other pitch. My recommendation is you take your normal batting stance and make the pitcher have to adjust.

My last point is your diagram is flawed. As Pauly has demonstrated, the rise ball actually flattens out the last 15 to 20 feet as it approaches home plate and doesn't continue to "rise" well past the batter. With few umpires calling the high strike, the rise ball is not the dominate pitch it used to be. The pure rise ball pitchers like Dallas Escobedo will be less and less effective with the smaller high strike zone.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
View attachment 7941

. As Pauly has demonstrated, the rise ball actually flattens out the last 15 to 20 feet as it approaches home plate and doesn't continue to "rise" well past the batter.

Absolutely correct. Willy's diagrams are nonsense. Attached is a diagram from the NASA web site. And, yes, the guy who wrote the program is a rocket scientist. And, yes, a PhD physics professor from U of I confirmed its accuracy. At this point, if someone doesn't believe this is the flight path od a rise or a fastball, I can only suggest that he/she join the Flat Earth Society.

The graphs are for a riseball is thrown at 60 MPH with 25 RPS perfect backspin. Fastball and drop are 60 MPH.

Take a good look at the graphs and then go to a college game with good pitchers. Stand at 3B and watch the flight path. If there is a good riseball pitcher on the mound, you'll see the flight path.

Back in the day (up until 2002 or so), the riseball was a great pitch in college. If the batter did hit it, it would be a pop up or a fly ball. With today's bats, the fly ball are now going out of the stadium. So, it is a high risk pitch.
 

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