Two Seamers

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JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
I have been wanting to try two seam pitches for a while. We experimented with them a while back but DD was uncomfortable with them and they caused her to lose a good amount of speed so we tabled it. Yesterday i got a wild hair and I searched the forum on Two seam pitches and found a lot of misinformation. The two seam pitches do not move because of spin, they move because of a pressure gradient caused by one side of the ball being relatively smooth while the other side is rough because the seams are to the wind. The ball will break in the direction of the seams.

For those of you that have DDs that can throw a 4 seamer with the slightly off axis 12-6 rotation, have her throw the same pitch as a two seamer and see if it cuts in. The physics at work here is the same as what occurs in swing bowling in cricket. It is also the same thing that makes knuckleballs move and why some describe two seamers as being unpredictable...
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3jnOIJg4k[/video]

Try it and see what you get.

We tried it yesterday and had some very good results for a first effort, got balls to break in and out. DD was really having fun with them this time.

I am sure there are folks (Riseball) who have DDs using this pitch at a high level. Please chime in so we get the benefit of your experience seeing it used live.
 
Last edited:
Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
One of my pitching students, the one with really long hands and fingers, likes to throw a four-seam rise-curve and a two-seam rise-curve. For her, she finds that she prefers the four-seam rise-curve for inside knees to waist high. This pitch seems to break like a curveball. She throws it so it looks like it's going to be too far inside (even like it might hit a batter hugging the plate) only to have it bread a bit toward the plate, hopefully as a called strike without the batter swinging. She prefers using the two-seam grip for throwing the up and away rise-curve. Of course, it looks like it's going to hit the mid to upper edge of the outside of the strike zone, but ends up breaking out a hair. She and I both feel she gets more ball rotation using the four-seam, and more speed.
 

JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
The beauty of a two seam is that the spin is not what causes the primary movement. In fact the reason it works is because the Magnus force caused by the two seams spinning is less than the force caused by the pressure gradient of the smooth vs rough side.

A true two seam Riseball would actually have mostly curve spin as this gradient force is 90 degrees to the Magnus force (not that I think it would work because this force is weaker by nature than a high spin
Rate Magnus)
 
Last edited:
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
The 2 seam is my DD's bread and butter pitch running it in or out based on grip and finger pressure. So far it has worked out fairly well for her. It is typically 2 mph faster than her rise and will break 3 balls when she is throwing it really well. One of the potential downsides to the pitch is that it is at times unpredictable. Properly thrown it will always move, but sometimes more than others. She drills her fair share of batters as sometimes it just gets away from her.
 
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JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
My DD switched to a two-seam fastball as her "primary" fastball. She gets good velocity and the pitch tails into a right handed batter. On a 3-2 count, bases loaded she will still throw a four-seam fastball as her "gotta be a strike" pitch, but it has less movement with more of a corkscrew spin.
 

JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
Thanks RB...I am sure you have seen this from the bucket a bunch. Does she throw it like I described, as a fastball with 12/6 spin but with the axis slightly off like below where the right side has the smooth part of the ball in the wind and the left side has seams in the wind?


seams here wlu6i8.gif smooth side here

for a pitch that breaks in?
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
Thanks RB...I am sure you have seen this from the bucket a bunch. Does she throw it like I described, as a fastball with 12/6 spin but with the axis slightly off like below where the right side has the smooth part of the ball in the wind and the left side has seams in the wind?


seams here View attachment 7608 smooth side here

for a pitch that breaks in?

Yeah. That's the ticket! Although she started throwing it after I left the bucket. :)
 
Last edited:

JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
The 2 seam is my DD's bread and butter pitch running it in or out based on grip and finger pressure. So far it has worked out fairly well for her. It is typically 2 mph faster than her rise and will break 3 balls when she is throwing it really well. One of the potential downsides to the pitch is that it is at times unpredictable. Properly thrown it will always move, but sometimes more than others. She drills her fair share of batters as sometimes it just gets away from her.


That's what we saw yesterday-pitches that looked to have pretty much the same orientation sometimes moved sometimes didn't. But when they did, they tailed pretty good. The strategy is going to be use this to start an A/B or on pitchers counts but go back to the laser beam on 2-2 and 3-2 as JAD mentioned. DD is really excited.
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
The 2 seam is my DD's bread and butter pitch running it in or out based on grip and finger pressure. So far it has worked out fairly well for her. It is typically 2 mph faster than her rise and will break 3 balls when she is throwing it really well. One of the potential downsides to the pitch is that it is at times unpredictable. Properly thrown it will always move, but sometimes more than others. She drills her fair share of batters as sometimes it just gets away from her.

My DD does this as well (though obviously at a much younger age than riseball's DD and at much lower speeds and with a lot less experience.. but then my DD gets to throw it from 40').

Unpredictable is right - wrong pressure, wrong grip and weird weather conditions and it is not the one that hits the batter I worry about - it is the one that doesn't move that gets hit. My DD likes to start hers on the plate and let the movement move it the edges or off the plate... and sometimes it just stays there. It is getting more consistent as she practices and throws it more, but sometimes....
 

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