How open should the shoulders get in pitching delivery ??

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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
I'd suggest playing around with every cue you read/hear about. Find what works. The experimentation process leads to a better understanding of how to make the ball spin, spot and speed.
 
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May 30, 2013
1,442
83
Binghamton, NY
As KenB's clips of Cat display, she is in my mind the Queen of a delivery that keeps the ball from batter's view right up to the point of release. Im always wowed by how that ball suddenly appears, and is immediately right on top of the batter...

That said, most of us poking around for advice here are training young, developing pitchers; and I think maintaining line of sight is a great fundamental, that should be encouraged. As the pitcher gains physical maturity and experience, many develop thier own variation on "textbook form" which is a manifestation of their own individuality.

Actually teaching an idosynchrasy of a high level pitcher isnt something I would be in support of personally. We cant all pitch exactly like Cat for example, because there are likely physiological differences that absolutely will factor.

There was a thread here a while back, seeking to crowd-source a list of "pitching absolutes", and although its hard to gain a concensus on a robust list of "absolutes", i think there are certainly a handful that seem to be agreed upon by many respected and knowledgable PC's. Spending time working on these should be the focus, especially 10u-14u, and the "intangables" seem to develop eventually and uniquely for each pitcher as a result.

My 2 cents...
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
One of the great challenges is to test the lines between idiosyncrasies and fundamentals. The even greater challenge is to create the learning experience that allows kids to find the intangibles without limiting their potential.
 
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Mar 12, 2009
556
0
I'm with FLOI on this one. I believe the ball swerving behind the back contributes to another dimension of lag and load.



I've mentioned in another thread that my hand and ball Naturally get in-line with my rear shoulder and head while doing the reverse-chaining drills and so does my DD's. In fact, the ball has always went behind my DD's head on the downswing so I'm starting to second guess that it should always stay visible to the catcher myself. Last night I noticed while my DD was performing the reverse-chaining drills with the ball in front of her shoulder towards 3rd base that she was throwing the ball way outside (RH hitter). It seemed the ball path was going from more outside her body slicing towards her front hip if that makes sense. This put the ball too far away from her rear hip in my opinion. It could be that she just wasn't coming straight down with her elbow but I'm not sure. It does seem that if the ball is right in-line with the rear shoulder at 9 then the ball/hand is able to be a lot closer to the hip/thigh at release.
 
Nov 7, 2014
483
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When I have DD bring the ball up outside her shoulder she also throws way outside to rhb But I believe it may be for a different reason then is assumed. I believe when they do it and are not used to it they react by holding on a little to long or bring there hand down on the corresponding angle but being behind the ball instead of inside of it.

But that is just my uneducated guess :(
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
I've mentioned in another thread that my hand and ball Naturally get in-line with my rear shoulder and head while doing the reverse-chaining drills and so does my DD's. In fact, the ball has always went behind my DD's head on the downswing so I'm starting to second guess that it should always stay visible to the catcher myself. Last night I noticed while my DD was performing the reverse-chaining drills with the ball in front of her shoulder towards 3rd base that she was throwing the ball way outside (RH hitter). It seemed the ball path was going from more outside her body slicing towards her front hip if that makes sense. This put the ball too far away from her rear hip in my opinion. It could be that she just wasn't coming straight down with her elbow but I'm not sure. It does seem that if the ball is right in-line with the rear shoulder at 9 then the ball/hand is able to be a lot closer to the hip/thigh at release.

Like corlay and FLOI suggested, setting the stage for and allowing beneficial techniques to occur can be much easier than trying to teach some of this stuff. My main concern would be someone trying to drill something beneficial out of a kid. Glove swim, whip, palm down finish, glove slap, natural follow through and push foot turn are all things I've seen/heard folks try to force out of a kid. If a kid is doing a great job with everything else and you can/can't see the ball in the back half-swing, I wouldn't sweat it. I would feel bad for a kid who naturally figured out how to load/lag going into release and a well-meaning person tried to "correct" it...
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Interesting points Ken & drc...

Pitchers are unique, I agree. This said... I'd be curious as to the position of the hips/shoulders... and the movement of those with drc's DD when missing outside.

When I drill, I have pitchers maintain the 'ball seeing the target' concept. I make sure that shoulder/hip line isn't closing too much, that the elbow isn't oriented incorrectly, and that the ball can see the target. Individually, these CAN/DO detract... but collectively they can really mess up a girl. especially those that are more prone to injury (issues with scapular stabilization, excessive joint laxity, etc) do to unique physiological factors... not to mention her ability to quickly progress.

In a full pitch, however... I am aware that many pitchers have a moment or phase where the ball is not visible... but I think that has more to do with the rotational necessity involved in a full pitch... and the fact that the EXTREMITY will lag behind the PROXIMAL structures, because that's just the 'nature' of things. To me, this is a result... not a 'trained move'.

For the sake of conversation... what if we took Ueno's video and said... you must wrap the ball behind your back in drill? In my experience... when a girl wraps the ball behind while back-chaining... this creates rearward rotation in the shoulders... which always leads to counter-rotation coming forward. As such... you can imagine... and probably have experienced, what happens when a pitcher throws with their shoulder and/or around their body. Everything breaks down... and they result to pushing.

Again, for the sake of discussion... Although we're all looking for adders, sound biomechanics that lead to longevity and general wellness... IMO... outweigh the potential for a little extra addition, especially when you consider the anterior capsule damage you could be encountering IF that level of horizontal shoulder abduction is outside your range of motion.

Anyway... interesting subject...
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
In a full pitch, however... I am aware that many pitchers have a moment or phase where the ball is not visible... but I think that has more to do with the rotational necessity involved in a full pitch... and the fact that the EXTREMITY will lag behind the PROXIMAL structures, because that's just the 'nature' of things. To me, this is a result... not a 'trained move'.

Love this!

Consider the path of the arm/ball as the torso opens and closes... Does it track independently for the sake of tracking? Or, can it take a natural/loose path, that (when feeling for the best way to fling that round, yellow orb) the body finds a way to use the sequence of motion to create a touch more load/lag going into whip?

I'm just saying that if a kid finds it--don't take it away.
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
When I drill, I have pitchers maintain the 'ball seeing the target' concept. I make sure that shoulder/hip line isn't closing too much, that the elbow isn't oriented incorrectly, and that the ball can see the target.

With, or without the wall drill? ;)
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
I like your consideration... and I believe the arm will take the path it is on. Which is why I do believe that you train so that it (the ball) can see the target... because this is biomechanically correct.... and creates the neuromuscular memory/strategies necessary to keep the arm in a position that is best for that athlete even when the torso is influencing it.

That probably reads poorly... ;)

How about this... if you trained abduction of the shoulder in drill... I believe the horizontal abduction that occurs because of the torso being ahead in a FULL pitch.. would make the movement hyper-abduction. Like 1 + 1 = 2. Transverse hyper-abduction is a bad thing... IMO.

Or how about this... train it neutral... so that the result is +1! Yeah, that's it! ;)

Regarding your 'natural loose path'... during the posting stage of pitching... the shoulder muscles... like the scap stabilizers are HIGHLY active, so I'm not sure that a full pitch really has 'loose' happening.... but I think I get what you are saying.

Good stuff.
 

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