Thread: For All You I/R Pitching Junkies........

Originally Posted by Hillhouse

The first pitcher is Andrew Kirkpatrick, #2 pitcher in the world and from Australia... the gold medal winning team at last year's Men's world. Nicknamed "Cheese" cause he throws so hard. I can ASSURE you all... he does NOT throw a drop curve.

Ya ok. How about we just say the pitch he's throwing is a "top spin" pitch thrown across his power line. You can call it whatever you like........

Neither does 8/10 of the people who think they do.

Pichers who throw peel tend NOT to throw rollover, and hence tend NOT to throw drop-curve.....I'm assuming that includes you, since you are a peel pitcher.

Japan used to be at the top of the food chain in men's fastpitch but has fallen off lately as they have imported pitchers (like Cheese) instead of developing their own. I don't think any of these Japanese pitchers (even though this video was made at their national tournament) are their top of the line pitchers, as in National team. If they are, they would get destroyed against the likes of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and USA as nearly all of these pitchers are doing that huge back swing with the hand, exposing the ball and it's grip to the batter. They may as well just tell the hitters what is coming, preferably in English.

Bill

I only saw a few pitchers with execptionally high arm swings. Most are hiding the ball in the glove and pushing it back while the glove stays in place to hide it.

"Now if we could just get some of the "worlds best pitching coaches" out there to start teaching kids properly, and get rid of those rediculous "push-down wave-up" mechanics, we'd have a lot more really good pitchers out there........"


Is this what you're talking about?

Part 1 of my pitching demon..., Pics, Photos, and Videos by Jennie Finch - Weplay


right around 2:30 in the first clip is where, I think, she describes what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Dusty

I must have missed that if it was in the IR thread, what are some of the IR drills?

I won’t speak for BM and I would imagine that he has better, time tested drills, but I use the side drill just swinging back from 6 to 9 o’clock with palm up, then encouraging them to just throw with a loose, relaxed finish. Once they get the rhythm of the drill, I have them throw hard. They are amazed just how much pop they can get on the ball just from the 9 o’clock position using IR. Once they get the IR right, they move on to starting at 12 o’clock (show it / throw it) and we do the same thing. Not complicated and not any original thought on my part, but this seems to work as they move toward using IR in their full motion. Not a big fan of drills, but these have been helpful.

Originally Posted by BoardMember

Ya ok. How about we just say the pitch he's throwing is a "top spin" pitch thrown across his power line. You can call it whatever you like........

Looks to me like a simple inside drop to a right hander. Why do so many people have to overcomplicate such things and call anything that goes side to side as a secondary breaking pitch (curve or screw)? to listen to some people (parents, coaches, ESPN announcers, etc.) everything that goes inside is a screwball, everything outside is a curve (to a RH batter). I guess that's how they add up all those pitches in the arsenal.. by having drop curves, curve rise, screw rise, etc. Soon, someone will invent a "drop rise" that will take the nation by storm.



Pichers who throw peel tend NOT to throw rollover, and hence tend NOT to throw drop-curve.....I'm assuming that includes you, since you are a peel pitcher.

You're right, I don't throw one. I do throw a cutting drop which breaks down and in on a right hander but that's it. The point I was making, albeit somewhat sarcastically, is that alot of pitchers claim to have 8 pitches, none of which spin correctly or any different from the others. Most pitchers believe, and it gets reinforced by various factors and people, they are throwing a 'drop curve' when they are simply throwing an outside pitch. It just sounds better to Sally that she's got this "wicked" drop curve ball. I get asked this a lot "Can you teach your drop curve?" I say, NO I'll teach you an outside drop.

BM, I've never played a game of baseball in my life. Only played Fastpitch. I was playing in men's leagues since I was 12. Imagine putting a 12 year old girl into a grown woman's league... most shiver to think of putting a 12 year old in a 16U tournament! in the course of my learning to pitch, I've tried everything known to man. Every style. every pitch. Every grip. etc. I was not born with the knowledge of how to do this, I spent my life learning. In doing this, I've come to the realization that most of these trick pitches are not exactly legit. And I personally find it a shame that so many are led to believe in such things. It doesn't help when ESPN people call the inside pitches "screwballs" etc. I don't blame the pitcher or even the parents. They listen to someone who "pitched in college" and that is enough to make people think what they are saying is gospel. And it's horrifying for someone like me to come in and tell them I see no difference in any of the spins among their 8 pitches... then I demonstrate 3. Rise, drop and change. I can vary all 3 with speed and location, that's it. I'm far from the world's best pitcher or world's best coach. But so much of what is being taught out there is nonsense that it's painful and virtually none of it does what people claim it does. When people actually know what they are looking for in pitches (spins, etc.) they can see through the BS a lot better. But throwing high pitches is no more a riseball than rolling a ball makes it a drop. Yet this is what gets taught and as someone who's done this his whole life, it bothers me. Sorry for the rant.



I only saw a few pitchers with execptionally high arm swings. Most are hiding the ball in the glove and pushing it back while the glove stays in place to hide it.

It matters very little how much they swing their arm back. Once the ball is removed from the glove before the arm circle, they've shown the grip. Even Cheese drops out early giving the hitters a 'snap shot" to his pitches. This is the only chink in his armor but he throws SOOOOOOOOOO freaking hard and with SUCH movement that it sometimes doesn't matter. But he is the exception, not the rule.

Bill

PLEASE explain "show it/throw it" drill please...I really need some way to get started with I/R or at least be able to talk intelligently *at a basic, fundamental level* with an existing pitching coach who seems to be more push down/snap-oriented. I'm really struggling to grasp the basics here.

I realize the answer may be to dive in all the way and go deep, but I need a couple of lifeline starting points : >

TKS.

Originally Posted by Hillhouse

Looks to me like a simple inside drop to a right hander. Why do so many people have to overcomplicate such things and call anything that goes side to side as a secondary breaking pitch (curve or screw)? to listen to some people (parents, coaches, ESPN announcers, etc.) everything that goes inside is a screwball, everything outside is a curve (to a RH batter). I guess that's how they add up all those pitches in the arsenal.. by having drop curves, curve rise, screw rise, etc. Soon, someone will invent a "drop rise" that will take the nation by storm.

Not sure what your peave is is to naming pitches that move in multiple planes. Now believe me, I understand that many dad's are told (and even some who aren't) that an outside pitch is also curving when it isn't. At least is isn't moving off it's intended plane. This can be irritating to those of us who know the difference. But why do you care?......Really?.......

If "Sally's" favorite pitch is the one she calls drop curve, why do you have to "set her straight"?.......I'm not sure of the motive behind this.

Moving on.........

My outside drop is just that....an outside drop. It isn't meant to curve. And it's what I call a split finger peel. I spread my index and middle fingers as far as I can to initiate the most spin possible, and get the ball out as low as possible in the zone. It goes down hard. It doesn't move down AND out. I'll throw it when I'm even or behind in the count so it will catch at least some part of the black if the hitter doesn't offer.

If I'm ahead in the count, and I've pounded a hitter with inside rise/drop and he keeps catching a peice, I want a pitch that "looks like" it'll catch the black, but moves off the plate, and DOESN'T stay in the same vertical plane, so I throw a roll over drop, that because of the release angle and axis not only drops, but moves off the black out of the zone.........It IS a curving drop.....NOT simply an outside drop........It is a different pitch....with an entirely different purpose.......

To the physics of it all Bill........You don't throw a "roll over", you throw a peel. Peel drops are NOT meant to move laterally across the body because the nature of the release/spin. They can be thrown outside by manipulating the bodies postion at realease. They can be "manipulated inward" to create what you call a "cut" drop. Others call it an "in shoot" drop. I throw that pitch as well. And yes, it does move inward. But I cannot make my peel curve away because of the nature of release/spin.

However, the nature of the release of the roll over lends itself to being manipulated outward just as easily as our peel is to manupulate inward.

I really think your peave stems from the fact that you are a "peel" pitcher. Which is why I said this:

Pichers who throw peel tend NOT to throw rollover, and hence tend NOT to throw drop-curve.....I'm assuming that includes you, since you are a peel pitcher.

This gets to me just a little:

You're right, I don't throw one. I do throw a cutting drop which breaks down and in on a right hander but that's it.

I find it a little conflicting that you are willing to tell everyone here that you throw a "cut drop" that breaks down AND in......Yet you laud people who say they can throw an "outward moving drop"......or DROP CURVE using roll over mechanics.

I gaurantee you Cat Osterman can NOT throw an "cut drop" to the lefty......because she is a "roll over" pitcher........

The point I was making, albeit somewhat sarcastically, is that alot of pitchers claim to have 8 pitches, none of which spin correctly or any different from the others. Most pitchers believe, and it gets reinforced by various factors and people, they are throwing a 'drop curve' when they are simply throwing an outside pitch. It just sounds better to Sally that she's got this "wicked" drop curve ball. I get asked this a lot "Can you teach your drop curve?" I say, NO I'll teach you an outside drop.

But I'll bet you tell them you can teach them a "wicked cut drop" don't you..........So why the conflict?.......Except to voice your frustration at those who really DON'T know what they're talking about.......Well believe me....I'm on your page.......And is why I wrote the "internal rotation" posts.

BM, I've never played a game of baseball in my life. Only played Fastpitch. I was playing in men's leagues since I was 12. Imagine putting a 12 year old girl into a grown woman's league... most shiver to think of putting a 12 year old in a 16U tournament! in the course of my learning to pitch, I've tried everything known to man. Every style. every pitch. Every grip. etc. I was not born with the knowledge of how to do this, I spent my life learning. In doing this, I've come to the realization that most of these trick pitches are not exactly legit. And I personally find it a shame that so many are led to believe in such things. It doesn't help when ESPN people call the inside pitches "screwballs" etc. I don't blame the pitcher or even the parents. They listen to someone who "pitched in college" and that is enough to make people think what they are saying is gospel. And it's horrifying for someone like me to come in and tell them I see no difference in any of the spins among their 8 pitches... then I demonstrate 3. Rise, drop and change. I can vary all 3 with speed and location, that's it. I'm far from the world's best pitcher or world's best coach. But so much of what is being taught out there is nonsense that it's painful and virtually none of it does what people claim it does. When people actually know what they are looking for in pitches (spins, etc.) they can see through the BS a lot better. But throwing high pitches is no more a riseball than rolling a ball makes it a drop. Yet this is what gets taught and as someone who's done this his whole life, it bothers me. Sorry for the rant.

Believe me......I get your rant.......I feel the same way everytime I see a kid being taught to get the hand on top the ball, and "snap the wrist up" by using a little "waiving up motion"........It irritates the hell out of me that people can actually teach this crap and be nationally recognized pitching coaches...........

So outside of your frustration regarding people who claim things they know nothing about......You should understand that there is NO difference between a peel drop pitcher/coach teaching a "cut drop" and a roll over pitcher/coach teaching a drop curve......because of the nature of the releases for spin........

Thx for pointing out "cheese"......The guys a monster for sure......

As always,

Best regards........

I had a long reply to all of this for you BM but apparently my session expired before I hit send. I'm rather pissed off about that. Suffice to say, I agree with some of your post. Disagree with other bits.

Bottom line, I don't have a problem if someone really throws a drop curve. But most do not. I'm going to disagree based on some first hand info that Osterman throws peels. But that can be debated later. I'll also disagree that I can't make the ball cut outward in a peel motion. Just as I can make it shoot in with finger pressure, I can make it go out. But I don't do this or teach it as I don't want the ball moving over the middle of the plate. That's dangerous. Which is also why Im not partial to the "drop curve" since most don't work anyway. Many hang over the middle of the plate.

Bill

I had a long reply to all of this for you BM but apparently my session expired before I hit send. I'm rather pissed off about that.

Everyone writing a significant post with lots of content should first write their comments in Word or another simple document program and then copy and paste. It is a small extra step but well worth it.Nothing is more frustrating than writing a great post and losing it.

Sorry about your reply. I learned to copy my post (ctrl C) BEFORE I hit reply because it happens all the time. Then I can re-paste it when I have to re-log in. That is frustrating that the login cookie expires SO quickly.

Originally Posted by Hillhouse

I had a long reply to all of this for you BM but apparently my session expired before I hit send. I'm rather pissed off about that. Suffice to say, I agree with some of your post. Disagree with other bits.

Bottom line, I don't have a problem if someone really throws a drop curve. But most do not. I'm going to disagree based on some first hand info that Osterman throws peels. But that can be debated later.

I'm not interested in debating that subject. If you say you have first hand info that she throws peel drop then I believe you. I've just never seen peel from her in the years I coached against her, and in the games I've watched her throw since.

I'll also disagree that I can't make the ball cut outward in a peel motion. Just as I can make it shoot in with finger pressure, I can make it go out. But I don't do this or teach it as I don't want the ball moving over the middle of the plate. That's dangerous.

I question the effiiciency of trying to make a peel drop "curve" to the outside. So as I said before, I agree that a curving peel thrown to the outside would not be optimal. I don't throw it or teach it either.

Which is also why Im not partial to the "drop curve" since most don't work anyway. Many hang over the middle of the plate.

Bill

I just can't place that label only on "drop curve", any more then any other pitch that doesn't do what it's supposed to........

Thanks for your insight Bill. Always a pleasure.

BM........