Frustrated DD - Dumb Parents

LOL!!! The infamous question, "Who are you talking to???" Me: "You!" (Sigh...) Sorry to derail your thread.

Me_and_my_big_mouth said:

LOL, it's my burden to bear . . . I'm pretty extroverted, other family members are introverted - so, I talk to myself a lot.

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Me_and_my_big_mouth said:

LOL, it's my burden to bear . . . I'm pretty extroverted, other family members are introverted - so, I talk to myself a lot.

Click to expand...

Soon you'll learn that your the best conversationalist you know.

So, I have no idea if anyone is still reading this thread, but just in case - I'm going to post the latest. I have been trying to find a permanent PC, because our PC now is a student and she gets really busy. I sent out a feeler, sort of explaining what we were looking for and the way that our dd pitches - I/R - and that we're looking for someone to work with that, not against it. I mentioned that we aren't crazy about the H/E approach. This is the response from the PC I reached out to. So it does make you question your choices, because she sure wants to be faster, but I really like what I read here on this forum and what I've seen in videos. So frustrating, we just want her to be confident and strong, and healthy above all. Arghhhhh.

"Hi.

Thank you for the email and your interest!

I am sorry the transition between coaches has been challenging. What I can tell you is that I can understand exactly what they are asking her to do and why.

Pitchers who are young can get away without the perfect form or technique. They are able to keep up with the other pitchers for a while, usually through middle school and the first couple years of high school.
And then form and technique really start to separate pitchers and you can't keep up unless you really have excellent form.

The reason for that is simply that form leads to efficiency and efficiency leads to speed.
You are not going to like my answer, but any movement/forces that cross the body (her current follow through) will act to slow her down no matter how much she snaps. Every movement the body makes either helps or hurts speed, and in order to help speed, movements need to be directly in line with the plate/her target.
The "hello elbow" technique is another way for the coach to teach her to be continually accelerating her arm speed THROUGH the release point, rather than just TO the release point.
Meaning, if she can stop her arm at chest/shoulder height (as she does now), she is already slowing down her circle before she releases the ball. This hurts her speed, no matter how much snap she has.

All of the above is physics, not just "style" as many people think. There really is ONE way to pitch that is better than all the others.

So..... with all of that being said, I am not sure I am the coach you are looking for!! The first thing I would want to do is to work on her lines and getting all of her forces in line with her target, followed by really driving THROUGH her snap and up in to a high elbow follow through.. exactly what you are trying to avoid in a pitching coach.

However, I fully encourage a drop-curve --- that was one of my favorite pitches to throw!!!

*** Also, she should NOT have back pain! She is too young to have back pain pitching... this is concerning to me.


I hope this all made sense. Let me know if you have more questions for me.

Best wishes & thanks again for getting in touch!"

Yet another PC who needs a reality check.

"but any movement/forces that cross the body (her current follow through) will act to slow her down...All of the above is physics..."

Something to consider: when someone who doesn't understand physics (i.e. the above PC) tries to claim physics, don't let them off the hook. Once the ball is released, nothing the pitcher does can affect its trajectory or speed. If the pitcher's arm comes across the body after release, it is not physically possible for that motion to affect the flight of the ball in any way.

[Disclaimer: I am not a physicist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night]
Beyond that, the physics of a proper IR release almost require that the arm come across the body on follow through, at least to a certain extent. You have multiple vectors as a result of two moments: the moment of the ball/arm rotating around the shoulder joint, and the moment of the arm rotating around its center (the IR part - pretty sure it's called pronation?). When you add the resulting vectors, there is no way to stop the arm from crossing the body to some extent unless a conscious effort is made to resist the forces involved.

I'm sure I greatly over simplified the physics, but I think I hit the high points. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I misstated something!

BuckeyeGuy said:

Yet another PC who needs a reality check.

"but any movement/forces that cross the body (her current follow through) will act to slow her down...All of the above is physics..."

Something to consider: when someone who doesn't understand physics (i.e. the above PC) tries to claim physics, don't let them off the hook. Once the ball is released, nothing the pitcher does can affect its trajectory or speed. If the pitcher's arm comes across the body after release, it is not physically possible for that motion to affect the flight of the ball in any way.

[Disclaimer: I am not a physicist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night]
Beyond that, the physics of a proper IR release almost require that the arm come across the body on follow through, at least to a certain extent. You have multiple vectors as a result of two moments: the moment of the ball/arm rotating around the shoulder joint, and the moment of the arm rotating around its center (the IR part - pretty sure it's called pronation?). When you add the resulting vectors, there is no way to stop the arm from crossing the body to some extent unless a conscious effort is made to resist the forces involved.

I'm sure I greatly over simplified the physics, but I think I hit the high points. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I misstated something!

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Thanks, Buckeye. This has been confusing for us - and we were really surprised about the comment that dd is "stopping her arm". She isn't "stopping" - she's following through as it feels right for her. Yes, she does need a lot of work on her lines and her drive - but for having pitched not even 2 years, we're actually pleased with her progress. We've noticed that she has an odd way of spinning the ball off to her right - and when it goes wild, she tends to hit RH batters. I'm reading all the threads from BoardMember (over and over and over) and it seems like that's ok for now. We are completely aware that she needs to do a great deal of work to become competitive, and she's willing to do it - but we don't want her down the road in the wrong direction. I've read too many horror stories now on this forum to do that to her. Now I think she's questioning herself and wondering if she has what it takes to be a pitcher - and we still whole-heartedly believe that she does, she just needs to the confidence and guidance that the right PC and Coach will give her.

I guess I can agree with the PC who wrote me that note on one thing; she is, indeed, not the PC for my dd. That begs another question, then: How in the heck do you find a PC who is on board with the I/R concept? All over my area, we're told, "There's only ONE right way to pitch". It's disheartening, when we can look at her and see what her body wants to do on its own. The kid taught herself to pitch using YouTube - and I went back on last night and went to one of her favorites: Amanda Scarborough in slo-mo off the power drive - and you show me where this girl who my dd idolizes sends her elbow up towards the catcher?? Still so frustrated right now. .

She is right. There is only one way to pitch. It is not that way though.

I would avoid talking about I/R as a pitching term. Better to just ask a PC to demonstrate a pitch in slow motion and see if they have the ball being pulled down the circle, elbow bent, brushing the hip etc. even then you won't find many who get it.

How can a pitching coach say something so correct here:

perspective pitching coach said:

Pitchers who are young can get away without the perfect form or technique. They are able to keep up with the other pitchers for a while, usually through middle school and the first couple years of high school.
And then form and technique really start to separate pitchers and you can't keep up unless you really have excellent form. The reason for that is simply that form leads to efficiency and efficiency leads to speed.

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and then fail so miserably here:

perspective pitching coach said:

You are not going to like my answer, but any movement/forces that cross the body (her current follow through) will act to slow her down no matter how much she snaps.

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The irony is she is exactly backwards!

Ask her to show you an elite level pitcher that is using the mechanics she promotes. In case she refers to Jenny Finch, be prepared to show her slow motion video of Jenny's arm motion prior to the forced HE appearing finish that happens after release.

My DD has seen 4 different pitching coaches in 6 years and the one thing I can tell you is none of them understand arm whip 100%. One thing I did (and still do) is focus on the knowledge that they do have about other areas of pitching mechanics whether its leg drive, grip, backswing, posture, front side resistance, game strategy, etc. For example, I told DD's last PC not to mess with her arm whip mechancis but focus on other areas of the pitching motion. Luckily the PC was receptive to this approach and it worked out pretty well.

Unless your PC is BM, Hillhouse, Java, KenB, Rick Pauly, Rich Balswick...you need to pick your battles and educate yourself on proper arm whip mechanics and generally be your DD's personal pitching coach. What I have found is as the pitcher gets older and more experience, PC's will generally leave the arm circle mechanics alone and focus on other areas of the pitch.

You are doing the right thing, coming to this site and asking lots of questions. You are well ahead of the game compared to most parents.

Me_and_my_big_mouth said:

We've noticed that she has an odd way of spinning the ball off to her right - and when it goes wild, she tends to hit RH batters. I'm reading all the threads from BoardMember (over and over and over) and it seems like that's ok for now.

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yes.
It's a good sign that she's "staying inside the ball" just previous to, and at, release.

If she's not already, I'd be working her toward developing a posture where shes able to keep her forearm/wrist/hand/ball tight to her body through the release zone. Frequently referred to here as "brush interference". I noticed in my own developing DD, that when she began to close the amount of daylight between arm and body at release, her wild misses to the right dropped in frequency dramatically.

Good luck with your PC search!

In the meantime, if you haven't already found it, I would strongly recommend you go to youtube and search for Bill Hillhouse's clinic in 4 parts on FPTV. It may give you a little better understanding of the mechanics involved since it will be visual as well as explanatory.