Drop ball and internal rotation

Hillhouse · Dec 14, 2009

Ok, I'm wrong. I know nothing about pitching a dropball.

Mark, to answer your question, I believe it's just made more complicated than it needs to be. Many who teach the peel drop, encourage pitchers to do this ridiculous pull up motion at the release, thinking that generates more spin. Maybe it does. But I also know the pull up is not natural and negates the chain of snaps (elbow, wrist and fingers) which will make the ball spin hard and keep the velocity at it's peak. I just think people overcomplicate this and don't realize how simple the dropball is. If they have the straight rotation, the release point will make it fall off the table. Have your pitcher try it.. it will work.

Vdub... if the spin is not straight it probably means something is going wrong in the motion. Maybe her wrist is curled or cupped at the top of the arm circle? That will off center the spin. OR she's doing something else mechanically wrong which will screw up the spin.

Bill

Mark H · Dec 14, 2009

Thanks Bill. Have you ever used the string as an objective measure to work on increasing break?

curiousgeorge · Dec 14, 2009

I really respect the fact sluggers tries to help people but come on. You're daughter played in college, not you. I understand you went through the journey with her but your belief that makes you so qualified is becoming a little crazy. And it's getting worse. I'm sure she was a fine pitcher and a good athlete but it's almost harder for a decent pitcher to NOT play in college than it is for them to actually play at a school. You make constant references to your daughter's college career as if she won world and national titles annually. And here you're telling someone who's internationally accolades are plentiful that he's wrong on how he does it? Just do a quick google, Hillhouse was 3-0 at the World tournament this year and 1-0 at ASA Major nationals (throwing a perfect game). I'll bet in some of those games he threw that drop that you claim is incorrect. As someone who's seen his clinic presentation and demonstration, I don't think YOU should be saying such things.

mrslug01 · Dec 14, 2009

As I read this, it was clear Bill and sluggers are talking about different drops. Peel vs turn over. Seems to me that as Bill throws his Peel same as his fast ball, it would be the same speed. Also seems to me that he would know if het releases earlier or later than his fastball. I know if my daughter is throwing a fastball too high and she needs to get it lower, she has to release earlier. Slugger's daughter throws a turn over. Is it possible that accounts for the slower speed. Seems to me it could. The release thing confuses me though. My daughter throws a turnover drop. I know when it's high she has to release it earlier to get it lower. I also know that, because it's a different motion than her fastball, I couldn't tell you which she release earlier. They are different pitches so what are we using as the reference point? The distance from the earth? My daughter leans back on her fastball and a she more upright on her drop so it's not an apples to apples comparison as it would be with Bill throwing his fastball/drop with the same motion. Sluggers, when you say she releases later, with resepct to what?

CoachFP · Dec 14, 2009

sluggers said:
Bill,

Bill, you're wrong.

Most good pitchers have a really great rise ball, so they use a drop as a way to throw off the batters. If you have a batter worried about a rise, you don't need a great drop. Then you do what you describe which is put some English on the ball to make it move a little.

That was not the situation with my DD. She couldn't throw a rise to save her soul. She had a 61 mph fastball in a game. She wouldn't have lasted 2 innings without something else.

She could throw the ball about 1 inch over a 3 foot obstacle that was placed 20 feet in front of her and hit the middle of the plate (not middle of the strike zone, the middle of the plate). You can only get that kind of real sharp break on the ball if there are additional downward forces on the ball other than gravity.

She got a wad of money and a closet full of newspaper clippings, plaques, medals and trophies for throwing the darn thing. Perhaps there are other ways to throw it.

Angle of axis with ground:

The spin axis of the ball is parallel to the ground for a drop ball or a rise ball. I've never heard of anyone disagreeing with this.

RPMs If the RPMs are the same for a fastball and a drop, then you aren't going to get a real sharp break. In another thread said that you said you used a different method of release for a drop. You were talking about Osterman using a "man's method of throwing a drop". She uses a three-finger grip when she throws a drop. Why use different grips then if aren't trying to increase the spin?

Velocity

My DD's fastball versus her drop ball was clocked many, many times in college. The coaches were always pushing her to throw her drop faster. (In practice, not in games, because she would change speeds on everything in the game.) She could hit 64-65 mph with a fastball. Her drop would be around 61 mph.

She didn't necessarily "want" her drop to be slower than her fastball.

Release point

You have to release a drop ball later, with a higher trajectory. If you don't release the ball later (with a higher trajectory) the ball hits the ground about 10 feet in front of the plate. You have to "start it out higher"

Sluggers, it sounds to me that the reason your daughter couldn't throw a rise ball is because she was so used to "rolling her shoulder over to throw the drop". Yes you can throw a "drop" ball by twisting your body and rolling the shoulder over and letting it go later. This pitch will go down, because it is forced down. There is no sharp break, compared to what you get with a well thrown peel drop. The reason it was slower is because the hand was not behind the ball and you lost the last piece of snapping of the kinetic chain. I am sure your daughter was a good pitcher in college and that is nice. You base all of your opinions about pitching on her career. You need to break from that and learn more about the science of it. Hillhouse is a student of the game. His pitches do what they are designed to do and he has the theory to back up what he can do. His theories are generally different from a large majority of people in the girls and women's softball world who are still going by what people taught them 25 years ago.

sluggers · Dec 14, 2009

Bill, I respect you as a pitcher and teacher. You know how to pitch, but apparently, I don't know anything about reading. I was really surprised when you said that you "couldn't disagree with me more" about orientation of the spin axis, RPMs, velocity and release point.

As to spin axis, you agree that it is important.

As to RPMs, on your web site (Bill's article on drop balls) , you say that you get more spin from throwing a peel than from throwing a rollover. If RPMs don't matter, than who cares how much spin you get?

You also say on your website that the velocity of a pitcher throwing a rollover is "much less" than someone throwing a peel. Again, I said my DD threw about 3 to 4 mph less throwing a rollover compared to her fastball.

So, to be honest, I don't even know what you disagree with me about. Release point, maybe?

mrslug01:

The proper terminology is that she is "more on her front foot at release for a drop than for a fastball".

CoachFP:

sounds to me that the reason your daughter couldn't throw a rise ball is because she was so used to "rolling her shoulder over to throw the drop".

Actually, it had more to do with her getting on her front foot early and having some problems in her form, but I understand your point, and I agree.

The reason it was slower is because the hand was not behind the ball and you lost the last piece of snapping of the kinetic chain.

Absolutely correct.

There is no sharp break, compared to what you get with a well thrown peel drop.

Wrong.

You need to break from that and learn more about the science of it.

The science of the breaking pitch is the Magnus force. The Magnus force is proportional to RPMs, lift coefficient, and the axis of spin of the ball. A pitcher manipulates those three variables in controlling the amount of break and direction of break of a ball.

Generally:

Pitching coaches see the student one hour a week, maybe for 30 or 40 weeks a year, for a couple of years. After they quit pitching, coaches never talk to them again. They wouldn't know if the pitcher's arm fell off.

I was out in the back yard with her, three to four days a week for four years. My shins were black and blue from trying to catch her. I've dried more tears from failures and shared more beers from successes than you can ever possibly know.

CoachFP · Dec 14, 2009

A rollover drop does not break as sharply as a peel drop. A peel drop that is throw with the proper release angle. Angle of release is almost as important as RPM's. Cat Osterman has the best drop in women's softball and it is a peel drop.

sluggers · Dec 14, 2009

*sigh* I didn't say the rollover was better than a peel.

Bill makes a good case for why the peel drop is better than a rollover. Bill's Article He might be right.

sjsss · Dec 14, 2009

Great discussion about the (peel) drop ball. First of all, as an instructor who never pitched a softball, I do not have the invaluable experience of actually throwing a peel drop. I knew that Bill explained that the ball was released early to maximize angle. It seems to me, on purely anecdotal experience that more spin is imparted by staying on the ball slightly longer than the fastball- that is the fingers have a better opportunity to stay on the seams longer (generate more spin) and to actually end up in a finger position higher up on the ball – where it would seem to be easier to spin a ball down. Honestly, the way I taught the peel for many years was to stay on the ball and spin it down. This worked very well, although from a “scientific” standpoint this may have nothing to do with what is actually happening.

After learning more from Bill’s excellent DVD’s, I figured I was wrong on this one and began to instruct students to release the peel drop earlier than the fastball rather than what I had been teaching. Honestly, this has never resulted in success or improved the peel drop in my kids. The instruction to stay on the ball and spin it down has however worked very well. Maybe I am explaining it wrong. It is an area of confusion for me, I admit. Perhaps if I had access to better video I could understand what is really happening in the peel drop release. At any rate I do not pretend to be in Bill’s league and am not presenting an argument here, just my observations and looking to learn.

CoachFP · Dec 14, 2009

sluggers said:
*sigh* I didn't say the rollover was better than a peel.

Bill makes a good case for why the peel drop is better than a rollover. Bill's Article He might be right.

No you didn't but you did describe it diving down incredibly far. You did say however that she used her "shoulder" to spin the ball. Maybe I misread this but using the shoulder to spin the ball is patently wrong and inefficient. The fingers spin the ball and if you are using large body parts to help there you are introducing problems. Your problem was her inability to throw a rise ball.

Drop ball and internal rotation

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