Riseball spin

Perfect riseball spin would be 6-12 and like maximum achievable internal rotation (ball facing sky at 9) close may be good enough. As posted earlier a high fastball is not a riseball. A riseball requires "backspin" to keep it elevated longer, not "jump".

And for what it is worth, in my experience anyway, typically a pitcher would be a riseball pitcher that throws a drop or a dropball pitcher that throws the odd rise (read high fastball here). Normally a pitcher would not excel at both (there are anomalies - I am being general here). And mediocre of both will get hit a long way. I suggest you find which your DD excels at and perfect that pitch while "working" on others. Change of speed of all pitches is more important than developing 7 pitches. Just my $0.02

All good stuff but if anyone has clips showing spins that would be awesome.

riseball said:

You need to work toward a 12-6 rotation and get as close as possible. Then if it moves enough to be effective, throw it. If your DD did not have perfect swing mechanics would you not let her hit?

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That sounds rather definitive.

Do you have an analysis of the pitch profiles for both '12-6' and 'bullet spin'?

The reason I ask is that I see 'bullet spin' rise balls frequently, and they seem quite effective .... so I'd like a quantification of the 'need' to throw rise balls with a 12-6 rotation.

FiveFrameSwing said:

That sounds rather definitive.

Do you have an analysis of the pitch profiles for both '12-6' and 'bullet spin'?

The reason I ask is that I see 'bullet spin' rise balls frequently, and they seem quite effective .... so I'd like a quantification of the 'need' to throw rise balls with a 12-6 rotation.

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I would argue that a perfect bullet spin (axis pointed straight forward at umpire's head) isn't a riseball at all. Again, as I see it, if it ain't got a backspin, it ain't a riseball.

Doug Romrell said:

I would argue that a perfect bullet spin (axis pointed straight forward at umpire's head) isn't a riseball at all. Again, as I see it, if it ain't got a backspin, it ain't a riseball.

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Folks can argue all they want.

My request is for data. Do you have an analysis of pitch profiles that compare 'perfect backspin' versus 'bullet spin'?

The 'bullet spin' we see here (below) is what I see frequently for many people's riseballs .... and they do seem to yield the "anti-drop" pitch profiles that folks expect from riseballs ... but perhaps a perfectly thrown 'back spin' riseball would have a different pitch profile ... or would it? Let's see the data from perfectly thrown 'back spin' riseballs.

FiveFrameSwing said:

The 'bullet spin' we see here (below) is what I see frequently for many people's riseballs .... and they do seem to yield the "anti-drop" pitch profiles that folks expect from riseballs ... but perhaps a perfectly thrown 'back spin' riseball would have a different pitch profile ... or would it? Let's see the data from perfectly thrown 'back spin' riseballs.

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You may have a point. I believe a forward spinning ball would drop more than a bullet spin. But a backward spinning ball would drop even less. So given equal velocity, maybe the bullet spin pitch is a quasi-rise relative to the forward spin, but not an all out rise relative to the backward spinning pitch--the true riseball.

In other words, I believe the backspin thrown with the same velocity would end up higher than a bullet spin.

Doug Romrell said:

In other words, I believe the backspin thrown with the same velocity would end up higher than a bullet spin.

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Makes sense ..... and I'd welcome data quantifying this belief.

While many work diligently to achieve a true 'backspin', most seem to achieve a 'bullet spin' .... and while I've seen pitchers go off and spend years working on it, many never seem to realize the goal they set for themselves .... yet they do throw what does look to be an "effective anti-dropball pitch" .... which they were capable of doing without the years of effort to throw a true 'backspin pitch'.

The question is ... with all the effort that some go through to throw a true 'backspin riseball', what exactly is the realized benefit over the 'bullet spin' that is so much easier for many to realize?

FiveFrameSwing said:

Makes sense ..... and I'd welcome data quantifying this belief.

While many work diligently to achieve a true 'backspin', most seem to achieve a 'bullet spin' .... and while I've seen pitchers go off and spend years working on it, many never seem to realize the goal they set for themselves .... yet they do throw what does look to be an "effective anti-dropball pitch" .... which they were capable of doing without the years of effort to throw a true 'backspin pitch'.

The question is ... with all the effort that some go through to throw a true 'backspin riseball', what exactly is the realized benefit over the 'bullet spin' that is so much easier for many to realize?

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As I see it, all pitches "drop" from their original trajectory. The backward spin falls least. I suppose given batters see so many drop balls, the riseball appears to rise/hop. It's an illusion. Doesn't matter that it's an illusion, though, as it can fool the batter. I see the bullet spin as being between the dropball (forward spin) and the riseball (backward spin) in terms of how much it drops from its original trajectory.

Also, the pitch Boardmember throws in his IR in the Classroom thread has the axis turned so that it is not perpendicular to the pitch path. Catchers would see an axis turned down and to the right. Some might see it as almost being a bullet. Most riseballs from good right-handed riseball pitchers have the axis turned some from the catcher's perspective (up and to the left from the catcher's perspective).

For me seeing any backward spin constitutes the pitch as being a riseball. Seeing any forward spin constitutes the pitch as being a dropball. If all I see, as a catcher, a ball that is spinning counter-clockwise (right-handed pitcher) or clockwise (left-handed pitcher), I would call that a bullet spin.