Drive Mechanics

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Jun 18, 2010
2,624
38
Although Monica appears to keep her drive food in contact with the ground she frequently illegal pitches by taking an initial step toward Home plate.

mon_skip_step_zpsbamosfmh.png
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Knight... just now saw this post...

With Monica... well, she desires to be the fastest in the world... and a running start definitely helps. I'm not going to bag on her.

As far as external rotation...

I see no advantage in 'training' it... as it can only be performed as an advantage, illegally... and is not an advantage when performed legally.

That said... I see all the examples in your posts externally rotating... as that's what happens when your knee moves in a direction outward from your hips... which happens as you stride out and drag... or replant. There is an advantage created here... as there is more distance to move inward once you've gone outward a bit... but there is a limit. That reads a tad confusing... I'm sure...

The example of Silkwood is absurd. Anyone having issues with IP's is probably recovering from a massive coronary after looking at those gif's. That girl COMPLETELY replants... that's about as illegal and textbook of a crow-hop I've seen. To me... a replant is when the heel contacts the ground... and there is no doubt about that in those examples.

Anyway... the matter of external rotation is an interesting one...

Ask yourself (or anyone reading this) what this movement is - of the leg ON the ground - is it internal rotation of the femur or external? Pay attention to the direction the hips are heading...

2qd35v6.jpg


Then, this one. Internal or External?

5lqws1.jpg


Although this example is probably best served on a hitting forum... this concept confuses a lot of people.

So, when you see this next gif... you might be confused to see the hips heading in the same direction as the first gif above... and think that the femur is performing the same motion. It is not. This next one is internal rotation of the femur... the first one above is external rotation:

ncsyg.jpg


Knowing that... then what is this motion?

214umq0.jpg


The difference? The torque that a weighted foot creates in the ground. So... considering that a crow-hop is a replant... and a drag is a drag (will not create torque)... you sort of wonder what mechanical advantage a coil/uncoil motion in a pitch might create...
 
Last edited:
Oct 4, 2014
57
6
i am not a big "hey that's an IP" but this is crazy. why would they, both her coaches and the umps, allow such an extreme case of crow hopping?
 
Oct 22, 2009
1,781
0
I think Cat gets that little skip external rotation with her leg from starting out as a step pitcher. Both her and DD went to the same PC as beginners and my DD developed the same thing when I finally switched her to L&D, but I made her stop.
 
Jun 18, 2010
2,624
38
I think Cat gets that little skip external rotation with her leg from starting out as a step pitcher. Both her and DD went to the same PC as beginners and my DD developed the same thing when I finally switched her to L&D, but I made her stop.

Thanks for that post Jojo. My DD is working with a younger pitcher who has a similar rear leg action, and she was taught first step style pitching, then later added a leap.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Yeah... they associate getting open with a twisty-turn on the drive foot. Have her get up over the big toe, not around it. Also... have her work on extending the drive leg BEFORE extending the stride leg. The hardest part I've seen on young pitchers... is getting them to take the sitting aspect out that almost always occurs when they twisty-turn and stride leg extend first. Cat seemed to figure it out... not a bad model pitcher to end up like...
 
Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
Getting open can happen a lot of different ways.

A. Spinning open (neither ER or IR'ing) - THIS ONE IS CLEARLY WRONG TO DO
2s7cq5v.gif


B. ER'ing rear leg to push hips open
as_ip_zpsiteay2j1.gif


C. Un-weighting the drive foot to ER it before driving to push open
Baily-Side_081114.gif


D. IR'ing rear leg to pull hips open
BlaireLuna_HipSnap.gif


I am still intrigued with "D" above. We experimented with it a little a couple weeks ago, but DD's just not ready for it yet.


I don't know if anyone here is interested in this, but I'll share it none-the-less. Here is something to think of on the discussion of a turning or driving inward rear leg (this is an IR move).

Example A above: Starting from a neutral standing position, this pitcher spins sideways. Her leg is neither ER or IR'd. If this player attempted to IR later, she could IR her leg several degrees freely within the hip socket. By freely, I mean before the hip runs out of travel and then would have to turn with the rear leg.

Example B above: This pitcher uses a hop and an some ER motion to propel herself off of the plate. This ER move propels her because her rear foot is weighted. Since the foot is weighted can't spin, her hip is forced to push her open... With her foot in an ER'd position, she too could IR her rear leg freely for several degrees more than pitcher A before the rear hip runs out of travel.

Example C above: My own DD a year ago... DD un-weights her rear foot and ER's it partially. When she drives off the plate (rear foot is weighted), she will ER the rest of the way to get open. She too would be able to IR as much as pitcher B before the rear leg and hip fuse.

Example D above: Granted this pitcher is starting partially sideways, she is different than all the others... This pitcher IR's her weighted rear leg. Since her foot is weighted and cannot spin, it results in her rear hip pulling inward thus opening her upper torso to the batter. Interestingly because this pitcher IR'd to get sideways, there is no more room for her leg to IR. If she were to drive her rear leg in (IR it) from this position, her rear hip is now forced to move with her rear leg (she is coiled). Any IR movement of her leg would now result in her upper torso closing to the batter.


These same rear leg and hip movement patterns have also been the source of years of painful debate in the hitting technical forum...
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Cool thoughts, J. I would say that A leads to B and D... possibly C. What you see is a progression from stepping to pushing (an effort to get open) as the athlete matures. The emphasis was always static... when they were working on "the circle". Then... the need for a more dynamic movement arose... and the muscle memory of spinning to get open takes over.

I would partially disagree with your thoughts on A... Yes, that girl spins... but then pushes into ER ... and I think the people that try to work on fixing this... miss the more important concept. That concept is: the sequence of knee extension is being performed incorrectly.

A Crow-Hop is one of the harder fixes... no doubt...but if an athlete breaks apart their motion it can be fixed.

When I mention sequencing... I'm referring to the order in which the legs extend... and that extension is the straightening that takes place at the knee. Have a look:

ra46rt.jpg


and then have a look at Monica:

2hf6l1l.jpg


Many young pitchers make an association with striding... versus driving. If you're stuck in this little situation... ask them what stands out most in those two gifs? You might be surprised by their answer.

Then... consider these thoughts... comparing them to the gifs JRyan posted:

1) Which leg is doing more work?
2) WHICH LEG STRAIGHTENS FIRST?
3) Is either drive foot (Cat and Monica) twisting against the ground... or rotating as it pushes from the plate?
4) Does the heel of each drive foot travel OVER the big toe?
5) Did either pitcher 'open' in the gifs above?

Now... take those questions and compare them to what your daughter is doing... or the comparison gifs in JRyan's post.

Your goal is to convey the fact that in both Cat and Monica's examples... they STRAIGHTEN THE DRIVE LEG KNEE BEFORE THEY STRAIGHTEN THE STRIDE LEG KNEE. That's the sequence.

Now... take a look at that first girl... and tell me which leg straightens first? She's reaching out to a point... rather than driving out FROM ONE. That old saying: The plate is to push from NOT pitch from....

Both Cat and Monica PUSH WITH THE BIG TOE... and both have their heels TRAVELLING OVER THEIR BIG TOE, not around it.

Simply put: THE DRIVE NEEDS TO BE COMPLETED BEFORE THE STRIDE IS COMPLETED.

Thanks for your input J... really cool to see B again!
 
Last edited:
Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
Java, You ARE the undisputed drive mechanics KING! You just get it, and we all benefit from your getting it!

You've had some fantastic posts, but I'd put that last one in the top ten from you! Keep it coming!
 
Last edited:
Feb 21, 2013
77
0
Mr. Java,

I can't not tell you how in awe I am of this thread. Thank you so much for sharing your time and knowledge.

I have been reading voraciously. I couldn't wait to get to the training program. Here I am at the end...Did I miss it somewhere. I got to posts #228 and thought the program would follow. Then post #229 references their DD using the program. Maybe I missed it...maybe I need to pay for it! I'm more than willing. I'm sold. My DD is ready to get started!!! Please just let me know what I need to do!!

Thank you again!
 

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