Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

starsnuffer said:

You're kidding yourself if you believe a bullet spin ball has any "lift" and thus drops at a slower rate then any other pitch. It's all eyesauce. It's thrown low to high, it's a fastball with a fancy ego-feeding name.

I've yet to see video of any pitcher actually throwing a riseball with backwards spin. Finch, Abbot, Uneo, Tincher, they all throw bullet spin fastballs high in the zone.


-W

Click to expand...

When the current Arizona State pitcher throws a so called rise ball on TV and the spin is being shown in slow motion it is actually tumbling forward, especially visible the year ASU won it all her Freshman year- the pitch is purely a trajectory pitch that starts low and finishes high in the zone as you say. When you include Tincher in the mix of pitchers that aren't actually throwing a rise ball, I've had a tendency to put her in the class of a Kat Osterman where the ball actually appears to rise as evidenced by how she literally made our Olympic team look silly swinging at her rise in 2008 with pitches being swung at literally over the batter's head; but I have to confess that I've never seen her spin in slow motion. I've had the privilege of working briefly with a student of Denny Tincher's who was the high school Gatorade pitcher of the year last year whose rise spin was as close to straight back as I've ever seen; but to do so she was taking a few miles an hour off the pitch to make it happen as has been my experience in teaching the rise for the last twenty years. In baseball, many pitchers lose as much 15 miles an hour when coming over the top of the ball for the curve: so why shouldn't we expect true back spin on a rise ball to also cause some significant slow down in the speed of it as we come under the ball. I can't begin to tell you how many of my students who had what I considered to be true rise spin get ruined on that pitch when they've gone to college because the college pitching coach is insisting that the rise be thrown harder and it can't be significantly done without the spin becoming bullet spin. It is going to be interesting to me to see what happens to Denny's student in college with her rise.
(Notice I'm on not entering into the argument whether a ball actually rises or not- but I know this that it is harder to hit when it actually spins backward with "enough" speed.)
Also to address the thread, it is my experience that most students lose a little speed, especially for awhile, when learning to throw a drop which would cause me to believe that the spirally spin can be thrown harder. The question that needs to be asked is " which pitch is most effective" eh?

starsnuffer said:

You're kidding yourself if you believe a bullet spin ball has any "lift" and thus drops at a slower rate then any other pitch. It's all eyesauce. It's thrown low to high, it's a fastball with a fancy ego-feeding name.

I've yet to see video of any pitcher actually throwing a riseball with backwards spin. Finch, Abbot, Uneo, Tincher, they all throw bullet spin fastballs high in the zone.


-W

Click to expand...

Um, I don't think of a riseball as a bullet spin. To me, a true bullet spin comes at the catcher with the axis in-line with the path of the pitch. If that axis is rotated one way or the other with a backward spin, it is at the very least a weak riseball. If it's a true bullet, it's not a riseball.

Doug Romrell said:

Um, I don't think of a riseball as a bullet spin. To me, a true bullet spin comes at the catcher with the axis in-line with the path of the pitch. If that axis is rotated one way or the other with a backward spin, it is at the very least a weak riseball. If it's a true bullet, it's not a riseball.

Click to expand...

Now you're getting it.

-W

starsnuffer said:

Now you're getting it.

-W

Click to expand...

Now??? I've never said that a perfect bullet spin was a riseball.

I will say this.... While the ball does have to have back spin to be a riseball, the ball axis does not have to be perpendicular to the pitcher and catcher to be a riseball. My pitcher "miss K" does get backward spin with the axis at roughly 45 degrees or less (zero degrees being axis perpendicular to pitcher/catcher).

No, I'm not just now "getting it."

I think a lot of peoples riseball requires you to lay the clock horizontal instead of vertical and then they get 7/1 or whatever thrown on an uphill trajectory.

abbygale said:

I think a lot of peoples riseball requires you to lay the clock horizontal instead of vertical and then they get 7/1 or whatever thrown on an uphill trajectory.

Click to expand...

While my last post was more on a horizontal clock mindset with regards to the axis, given it's really a three dimensional discussion, I think we must speak in terms of both a horizontal and vertical clock. In discussing it, I think it helps to describe the axis.

SS
You sort of talk with disdain about the riseball. I am curious whether you have ever tried to catch one, hit one, or throw one. It would be kind of neat to have you reveal yourself so we can see what kind of expert you are on this pitch. It would be really cool if you would post some great pics of a man's riseball spin axis. Very few question the effectiveness of their riseball.

starsnuffer said:

Now you're getting it.

-W

Click to expand...

Javasource posted the following two months ago. This pitch sure isn't a bullet spin!

[/QUOTE]

starsnuffer said:

You're kidding yourself if you believe a bullet spin ball has any "lift" and thus drops at a slower rate then any other pitch. It's all eyesauce. It's thrown low to high, it's a fastball with a fancy ego-feeding name.

I've yet to see video of any pitcher actually throwing a riseball with backwards spin. Finch, Abbot, Uneo, Tincher, they all throw bullet spin fastballs high in the zone.


-W

Click to expand...

Are you saying that you've never seen a pitcher produce backward spin? Or are you just saying that the pitch doesn't soar upward sufficiently for you to call it a riseball?

It's tough to read spin (except bullet) with most video so unless you've either caught any of these ladies or been close enough to see the spin of lots of pitches live, you don't have a basis for your statement that they all throw bullet spin fastballs high in the zone.

Hell, even I can throw backspin underhanded.* I think most guys, armed with either Hillhouse's Road to the Rise video or Coach Hal's booger-flick riseball instructions (which Hillhouse allegedly stole from Coach Hal**) could do the same.


* Of course, I can't throw it consistently where a catcher can catch it. But I'm not much better with topspin.
** I keed!

Doug Romrell said:

Javasource posted the following two months ago. This pitch sure isn't a bullet spin!

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

If this pitch had a forward spin with the same axis orientation, the ball would fall much more from it's original trajectory. This pitch of Osterman's does, in fact, drop from it's original trajectory at a slower rate than it would if it were spinning forward, and it's due to "lift" generated from that backward spin. Does that "lift" overcome gravity? I think not. However, that "lift" keeps the ball from dropping as fast from its original trajectory.