Who is right?

fastpitch91 said:

Situation: 13U player, 3-4 years of lessons with her pitching coach, throws 47-50 (pocket radar). First year on my travel team, but 4th year of travel ball.

We had our first pitching session last week at practice. I made the following observations and recommendations of what she needed to work on.
1. Observation - she is throwing with a straight arm pushing the ball not whipping it; recommendation - need to get a loose arm and have a slight bend as arm crosses past head, palm facing to third (righty) and lead down the backside with elbow and once elbow reaches rib cage whip the forearam and hand rotating inward to the hip and follow through across the body.

2. Observation - she is walking through at the end of the pitch, ending with her drive leg stepping through 12-18" past the stride foot land position; recommendation - need to land and drive back on strong front leg, driving back knee to front knee and closing hips to 45 degrees, but NOT step through.

Player is distraught - pitching coach spent year straightening her elbow and has never said anything about her walk through. I am the new guy and how can her old coach be wrong after all these years?

So experts - please chime in and if I am all wet tell me so, and if I am right please confirm. (Full disclosure - I also give pitching lessons but am 100% booked with no need of new students )Thanks

(I plan to print this and give to parent and player so please respond with that in mind, thank you)

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In my opinion, the only thing you need to do is give them the link to this site and direct them to the model pitchers thread focusing in the slow motion posts of the pitchers. Ask them to read through BM's internal rotation in the classroom thread. The first post is Jenny Finch and Sarah Pauly in slo mo. If that doesnt convince them then i dont know what will.

Of course the mechanics you are suggesting are more correct than what this pitcher is currently using but convincing her and the parents otherwise is probably futile. I would try to delicately tell them and show them with video how the best pitchers actually pitch and explain to them that it is common for PCs who have not really studied the arm whip and front side resistance could be teaching mechanics that are counter productive to getting better velocity and spin on her pitches. With that said, I am assuming you have other pitchers on the team and if she is not effective, natural selection will take over and she will likely see less time in the circle as the other pitchers improve using correct mechanics. Unfortunately, you can't save everyone from poor mechanics. Good luck with that discussion

Maybe I missed something... but these were observations, no?

You observed both with your naked eye and not with video, right? If this is the case -and I respect your experience- I don't think a visual observation is ever good enough. The title of your thread is: WHO IS RIGHT... is that all you seek?

Let us review what is against this girl...

She is 12 or 13, right? That's an interesting age...
You can't add her to your clinic.
Her existing PC might not be helping her enough.
You are telling her something that goes against her successes... meaning she has 3 years of previous TB success, and now she feels inadequate.
Was the team around, witnessing these observations... or her other peers.
She also recently found out that her situation was going to be publicly posted on a website...

Look, I'm all about a high-level team... but the human in me can't help but notice that this girl could use some help, especially if you are right.

I think she would benefit least from you being right, and much more from you taking some video of her. From there, you can confirm your observations, but most importantly show her... This will add some creds for you... and heck... maybe she can work on improving... or see that the PC she has might not be the right one.... or

Maybe you are right.

Either way, she would benefit more from help than criticism. Showing her a comment that she is done because she pitches too slow is not a good idea either.

We all know the importance of some bend over the head, and this can usually be observed... but

Ball facing third is not ideal in my book... and might become more of a problem, than a cure.
Finishing vertical with the ability to take a step forward... I can't call that bad either, especially without seeing it. Maybe she finishes this way because of a good leg drive... and some torque... Maybe it's a minor correction... maybe it is a positive attribute.

Show her this: Post a vid or two of her pitching, and if no one else does, I'll help her.

Anyway, you want to help her... so that is commendable... and don't take my response as anything but a different perspective... Hopefully someone helps this girl.

I have had 10-year-old students that cruised at 51 and could hit 55mph.

If a 13 year-old-pitcher is not cruising at 50, whatever style / mechanics she has been taught are quite weak.

halskinner said:

I have had 10-year-old students that cruised at 51 and could hit 55mph.

If a 13 year-old-pitcher is not cruising at 50, whatever style / mechanics she has been taught are quite weak.

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How fast should a 16A pitcher be throwing?

Age is not the best factor for determining what speed a pitcher should throw. size is a better factor. 4' tall 13yr old may not thow as fast as 5' tall 10 yr old. I was watching the rising stars showcase 16u. The pitchers I saw were throwing from 53 to 62 mph some of these kids were freshmen in high school.

halskinner said:

I have had 10-year-old students that cruised at 51 and could hit 55mph.

If a 13 year-old-pitcher is not cruising at 50, whatever style / mechanics she has been taught are quite weak.

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Or her desire to be a good pitcher could be weak also. Seen several P's at this age that think they can continue with their 10U pitcher practice schedule and still get better.

obbay said:

Really? At 13U they pitch that fast? (not a criticism, a question)

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The "to-be" D1 pitchers are over 50 at 12U. Again this is the "to-be" D1 pitcher threshold (this is just a trajectory note as I know that many things can still happen in the girls development between 12 yrs old to 18 yrs old)

obbay said:

I saw a very fast (U18) pitcher being scouted and I asked the scout what she was getting for speed readings on her gun and it was only 52-54 mph. it's been a few years since I've been to an NPF game to compare her to, but she was throwing really hard.

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This must have been a D3 scout and 52-54 mph is NOT "really hard". DD's team would hurt a pitcher throwing that speed very very badly.

If you plan to present the information in this thread to the parents I would HIGHLY recommend you post of video of the pitcher in question to allow the DFP experts to critic the actual pitching motion vs. comment on your observations. There are different "schools of thought" when it comes to pitching, and I would caution you against conflicting with your players PAID pitching coach. If the pitcher struggles in the circle, you can casually suggest changes, but our coaching staff has always had an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach to pitching and hitting.

Out in Left Field said:

Average Top
14u 46-49 MPH 52-55 MPH
16u 50-53 MPH 54-57 MPH

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There is a difference between "cruising speed" and "top speed". "Cruising speed" is what a pitcher will consistently throw in a game to live batters. "Top speed" is usually the pitcher is just throwing as hard as she can without worrying about throwing a strike and no batter in the box. That said, I think you will start to see the numbers in your chart creep up. These days a lot of pitchers are doing softball specific workouts and players are getting "bigger, stronger and faster".