Thread: odd spin with internal rotation

DD just turned 11 and has been reworking her mechanics ala the internal rotation school of thinking.

Her arm mechanics are looking ok--occasionally still wants to lean toward the non-throwing side, but realizes when she does. She keeps a loose arm, turns over, and follows thru naturally palm down instead of the ole uppercut punch.

I cannot figure out why (or even how) the ball is spinning the wrong way. She is R-handed and from the catchers view the ball spins counter-clockwise like a screwball. I don't understand how the arm/wrist/hand turn one direction and the ball spins the opposite??? Thought maybe she was letting go too early or rotating too late but rotating sooner didn't correct it.

The spin does start to correct as we increase the distance to 40 feet and beyond(corrects as it flies). However it does still spiral some, just less profound. I'd prefer that ball to spin toward the catcher, but expected it to spin clockwise for a while. This counter-clockwise spin baffles me. Any advice?

VW
PS: The first response will likely ask for video. I also need a camcorder rec. What would you buy?? RVP, which I hope to own one day, recommends mini dv recorders which are now almost nonexistent. Even Walmart has zero as everything now has memory/hard drive. There are a couple that record to DVD still being sold, but I'm unsure what to buy. I want to be able to edit and slow-mo easily. Recs appreciated.

Originally Posted by vdubya

DD just turned 11 and has been reworking her mechanics ala the internal rotation school of thinking.

Her arm mechanics are looking ok--occasionally still wants to lean toward the non-throwing side, but realizes when she does. She keeps a loose arm, turns over, and follows thru naturally palm down instead of the ole uppercut punch.

I cannot figure out why (or even how) the ball is spinning the wrong way. She is R-handed and from the catchers view the ball spins counter-clockwise like a screwball. I don't understand how the arm/wrist/hand turn one direction and the ball spins the opposite??? Thought maybe she was letting go too early or rotating too late but rotating sooner didn't correct it.

The spin does start to correct as we increase the distance to 40 feet and beyond(corrects as it flies). However it does still spiral some, just less profound. I'd prefer that ball to spin toward the catcher, but expected it to spin clockwise for a while. This counter-clockwise spin baffles me. Any advice?

VW
PS: The first response will likely ask for video. I also need a camcorder rec. What would you buy?? RVP, which I hope to own one day, recommends mini dv recorders which are now almost nonexistent. Even Walmart has zero as everything now has memory/hard drive. There are a couple that record to DVD still being sold, but I'm unsure what to buy. I want to be able to edit and slow-mo easily. Recs appreciated.

Hopefully Boardmember will weigh in on the rotation question. I have two girls that have great 6/12 rotation using IR and a newbie that is still struggling a bit with the rotation. I would think it is the pinkie and ring finger leading through the release too much and not getting the hand squared up and directly behind the ball at release but what is the cause of that? Hips and shoulder closing too soon and hand and arm lagging? Not sure would like to hear what others think.
As to the RVP camera I believe you need to buy a miniDV camcorder with a firewire port and a computer with a firewire port. BestBuy stores still stock a Sony miniDV tape camcorder something like the DCR-HC38.

Boardmember says,
Rotation is NOT 2 dimensional.

For example........Describing a 6-12 straight over spin means the bottom of the ball is rotating from 6 up to 12 on a clock face, when that face is directly in front of you. Or straight over spin........

What if you rotated the clock face (horizontal axis) to the right 20 degrees, but maintained the 6-12 over spin. What would you call that?......7 to 1? 8 to 2?........

If 8-12 is accomplished in the decription above, fast ball spin is correct at approx 8-2.......

8-2 runs in a bit and doesn't "hang" in the zone........But maximizes velocity from internal rotation......

Also

Abby, I don't know what it typical.......I know I (the pitcher) am throwing the ball so spin orientation I describe is has always been from the pitchers prospective.........

If I hold the ball in front of me, pointing it toward the catcher thumb up fingers down, my thumb represents the top of the clock and my fingers the bottom.......

But like I said rotation is not 2 dimensional..........

Example.......If I throw a ball with my thumb slightly to the left of TDC (top dead center), and my fingers are pulling straight up the back, I'm still getting close to 6-12 spin, but the axis is turned slightly left instead of straight down the power line.......

But if I turn my thumb even more left and my fingers are swiping more up the side of the ball, I'm getting more like 4-10 or 5-11 spin.........or what I call more of a "tumble spin"........

A bullet spin pitch from my prospective is one that I see rotating almost purely clock-wise from my prospective.........or counter clockwise from the catchers prospective.........

vdubya,
read the last sentance. She has it right, for a righty her hand/wrist rotates inward and as a result the ball rotates the other direction.

Mike

Bear with me as I am not on the same page as far as clock face and spin...
As the catcher, I am wanting to see 12-6 spin(not clockwise 12-6 spin, but spinning literally from the number 12 to the number 6) which in the case of a 4 seam grip would have four seams paddling toward me each from the top of the ball to the bottom yes? This is what I want, or at least what I think we are striving for.

What I actually see as the catcher is the ball itself coming toward me with the 'paddlewheel' of four seams paddling toward the 3rd base dugout instead of toward me. From my bucket that spin is counter clockwise. Albeit the wall that the clock is hanging on isn't a line/plane between first and third base, but rather from first to the halfway point between third and home. Picture that plane, hang a clock on it and literally spin the hands counterclockwise and watch it from behind the plate. That is what I see.

The quotes above being somewhat out of context are difficult for me to make sense of. If Boardmember in his quote is describing his clock as if standing behind the pitcher and looking at the face, and the spin he says is 'correct' runs in a bit...AND he is talking about it running in on a Rh batter, then maybe the spin I see when I catch her is OK. Can someone clarify?? It seems like if a RH pitcher is throwing, the ball should spin or 'come in on' a lefty batter if using IR, but that's my pea brain talking. Correct me please. And thanks!!
VW

I just re-read the quote and it does sound a little out of context. Have you read the internal rotation thread all the way through? I cannot and will not speak for Boardmember so taking time to read that thread all of the way through will answer your question. Boardmembers quote below might make more sense.
It does sound to me like what you are describing is correct though.

vdubya
It seems like if a RH pitcher is throwing, the ball should spin or 'come in on' a lefty batter if using IR,

No, only if she is throwing a curve ball. For a fastball the way the ball rolls off the fingers it puts a slight counter clockwise spin (from the catchers view) on the ball making it cut in on a RH batter. For a drop ball the spin should be as true to spinning 6/12 on center as possible.
Hope this helps some.

Mike

Boardmember
If you start with 6-12 spin on a clock face (when viewed from the mound), and turn that clock face so the "3" is closer to you and the "9" moves away from you, you will be imparting "INWARD AXIS" 6-12 spin.........That is actually how I teach fastball.........

Internal rotation is STILL going on.......but the thumb comes off earlier, when the ball is still slightly orientated slightly outside the wrist. When this happens, the spin will result in "inward/forward rotation", or from the mound, approx. an 8-2 axis of the 6-12 rotation.........The Result, is a "bite" inward/downward under the hands..............

Capish?...........

Here's a caviot.........

When young pitchers are being taught to throw the ball......They should be missing INSIDE from imparting slightly more inward spin then forward spin...........

All of my very young RH pitchers ALWAYS hit more RH batters then any other pitchers around, because they are learning internal rotation with a release that facilitates maximum velocity.........Which causes the ball to be released with slightly inward rotation........
Boardmember

Helpful and thank you. I did read the thread thru and hence where we are today, but I need to check it start to finish again. The snip above is helpful. Thanks again!
Vw

Originally Posted by vdubya

Helpful and thank you. I did read the thread thru and hence where we are today, but I need to check it start to finish again. The snip above is helpful. Thanks again!
Vw

Here guys......This should clear things up.......

Fastball Spin - Catchers View. Inward/Downward Rotation RH'r:



Fastball Spin - Pitchers View. Inward/Downward Rotation RH'r:



Bullet Spin Catchers View RH'r:

Rising/Bullet Spin from Jenny Finch:

A picture of a spinning gear is worth a thousand words. Thanks.

Yes! Those gears are great. I'm seeing a spin somewhere between that first fastball spin gear and the last bullet gear, but closer to the first one. She is probably transitioning ok then.

Thanks to you guys for the help.

Before I try to fix something else that may not be broken...
I also notice that DD doesn't hit the power line with her stride foot. She is R handed and is landing consistently to the left of the line a few inches, but she does appear to be getting open. In the videos in the IR thread , I see Cat and Ueno striding very true down the line, but Jellie and Jenny land left of the line much like my DD is doing. My dd is generally not missing to the left, but mostly to the right. Should I try to get her to land on line or let it be?

Vw

It's funny that my daughter has thrown to me with a stiped ball for a few years. I would throw the ball to her and show her 6-12 spin. She would pitch it back and it was about 8-2 as described in the internal rotation thread. So tnow that I understand it, I've stopped bugging her about it lol.
She was throwing with internal rotation before I knew what it was. Looks just like that gear on top.