Learning peel via "internal rotation thread" method

[abbygale]

After a successful experience helping my l&d daughter become a "thrower" and no longer a "waver" (thank you internal rotation thread contributors), I am now going to try and help her learn a peel drop.

Where do I start? We are talking about an 11 year old. Is the stride shortening, pull up on the ball action, the ticket? Does she get behind the ball at the very last second and how do I get her to learn to release sooner if needed? She currently releases between the middle and front of her back leg with a semi-closing of the hips chasing her hand. Is she leaning back at release or more upright?

She is throwing the ball at 42-44 (but getting straight A's ) with 12-13 rps courtesy of a revfire set. I realize that her current speed by many is considered a natural drop ball via gravity at 40' but hey, baby steps right?

I don't know where to start and any help would be appreciated.

[go4fpsb]

After a successful experience helping my l&d daughter become a "thrower" and no longer a "waver" (thank you internal rotation thread contributors), I am now going to try and help her learn a peel drop.

Where do I start? We are talking about an 11 year old. Is the stride shortening, pull up on the ball action, the ticket? Does she get behind the ball at the very last second and how do I get her to learn to release sooner if needed? She currently releases between the middle and front of her back leg with a semi-closing of the hips chasing her hand. Is she leaning back at release or more upright?

She is throwing the ball at 42-44 (but getting straight A's ) with 12-13 rps courtesy of a revfire set. I realize that her current speed by many is considered a natural drop ball via gravity at 40' but hey, baby steps right?

I don't know where to start and any help would be appreciated.

Bill Hillhouse will tell you absolutely no pulling up to throw a peel drop. Google Bill's web site there is a video clip of him throwing a peel drop. Cat Osterman throws a peel drop and she doesn't pull up or as Bill calls it "starting the lawnmower". I do teach striding a few inches shorter and getting neutral to slightly forward with posture at release. Which is why some people say you can have a very good drop or rise but not both. If your DD is throwing correctly with internal rotation she will get very close to the 6/12 rotation and she will put massive spin on the ball. The object of the peel drop is to use the fingers at the end of the release for max spin, use all four seams and get a slightly earlier release. The best drill is the chinese jump rope strung between two hitting tees 10-15 feet in front of home plate at mid thigh or so level. Make your throw tick the top of the jump rope and see how much drop you can generate by the time it gets to home plate.

[Coach Stan]

I threw and teach a normal or natural drive out, slight weight shift on release and peeling the seems up on the ball leaving the elbow down and the palm up facing the body. It sould look like you are throwing the fastball but the peel up off the seems with the slight weight shift allowing you to get on top of the ball will allow for a great spin downward. I used and teach a 4 seems peel drop.

[abbygale]

Thanks for the replies.

She is throwing now with the internal rotation. That thread was/is a goldmine. At release, should her wrist sort of come over the top of the ball with the fingers wiping the ball somewhat downward and forward trying to maintain friction/contact until the ball rolls under the pads of her fingertips?

Would the show it and throw it drill with the ball sitting in the palm of the hand and the thumb totally disengaged (maybe next to the index finger) and slowly coming down with a wipe over the ball be at release be a method of starting to get the spin right?

[go4fpsb]

Thanks for the replies.

She is throwing now with the internal rotation. That thread was/is a goldmine. At release, should her wrist sort of come over the top of the ball with the fingers wiping the ball somewhat downward and forward trying to maintain friction/contact until the ball rolls under the pads of her fingertips?

Would the show it and throw it drill with the ball sitting in the palm of the hand and the thumb totally disengaged (maybe next to the index finger) and slowly coming down with a wipe over the ball be at release be a method of starting to get the spin right?

If you are throwing a turnover drop or a turnover drop curve, yes. If you want to throw a peel drop , no. On a peel drop the fingers point down at release, the ball rolls off the finger tips as the fingers are pulling up on the seams. The turnover can put your elbow and shoulder in some strange contortions if not done properly. I really don't teach it at this point. I am sure others can give better insight on how to throw that pitch than I.

[Mark H]

Bill Hillhouse will tell you absolutely no pulling up to throw a peel drop. Google Bill's web site there is a video clip of him throwing a peel drop. Cat Osterman throws a peel drop and she doesn't pull up or as Bill calls it "starting the lawnmower". .

OK, now I understand Bill's objection. The phrase starting the lawnmower implies a long stroke. No sense in that since the ball is already gone. Any pull up behind the ball to add rpms would have to happen at release in a short sharp movement involving the shoulder complex, the plant leg, and the fingers.

I do teach striding a few inches shorter and getting neutral to slightly forward with posture at release. .

Or get more spin so it will break down to where you want it without getting forward at release.

The best drill is the chinese jump rope strung between two hitting tees 10-15 feet in front of home plate at mid thigh or so level. Make your throw tick the top of the jump rope and see how much drop you can generate by the time it gets to home plate.

And when it gets easy to throw it over the rope and break it down to the knees or lower, move the rope in and or up to increase the difficulty. And make sure the catcher is geared up if you are using something that can deflect the ball's flight.

[txsensei]

Actually since we're in recession, should it be 1 cent? Or if you don't agree with my thoughts, 0 cent?
1. Throw drop with fastball mechanics, including staying back:
Shortening the stride, which brings the body upright or forward,
increases the release timing difference between the FB and drop.
So another flow must be learned, requiring more practice time.
Shortening the stride changes body posture during release, making
consistent releases challenging. For consistent release timing,
posture must be maintained as much as possible through release.
What happens afterwards doesn't matter.
2. I have been teaching the "flip"/peel drop, not my term, taken from Eddie
Feigner's booklet, not his term either. Using the usual FB grip(thumb
and middle finger opposite), lift the thumb off the ball with wrist
cocked back. This accentuates hand/finger action in spinning the
ball. The thumb is not retarding forward roll as much because it's off
the ball. Lifting the thumb quickly initiates the hand/finger action. If
anything the brain senses that it better do something before the ball
slips out.
3. I advocate a high follow through on all except the curve, because if
flow and bodywork are efficient and consistent, that is where the
arm will go. With the peel follow through, the hand should follow the
hard upward hand/finger action of hitting up behind the ball, by
following the front line of the body with the elbow slightly chicken
winging. The wrist should still be maximally bent(opposite of cocked).
I have used the euphemism of starting a lawnmower, to get maximum
upward snap from some instead of through snap
4. Insist on perfect 6-12 spin on FB and drop from initial drills on through
warm ups, etc. This way on "off" days ball spin and accuracy
will still be decent. If ball spin is off 6-12 to begin with, then on off
days, it will be worse, so no movement or accuracy. A change in
hand position results in a different release timing and mechanic from
the usual, thus inaccuracy.
5. This may be the most controversial point: The drop must be released on
an upward angle. Thus stay with the FB mechanic of body back,
which allows for this. Hand/finger action on movement pitches is
used to spin the ball not power it forward, thus less velocity and
more time for gravity to do its work. Also, that drop spin will move
the ball downward more than the FB, so the pitch must be started at
a higher angle for that same above the knee strike call. Someone
with more time than I has calculated that a 70mph FB must reach a
height of 27"-28" off the ground during flight to be a legitimate above
the knee strike at the plate for an average female adult hitter. So
the pitch cannot be thrown downward toward the plate.
If the body is straight up or forward as many do, the release is later
and thus the arm is decelerating and hand/finger action is being used
more to guiding the ball to an upward angle, rather than to more spin.
Thus what I have observed as an umpire occurs. The ball goes
toward the top of the knee, moves a ton, but ends up below the
knee, called a ball, and yet elicits a "great pitch" from the coach.
Next drop moves like it's high enough to end up above the knee, but
doesn't move, no call is made because the ball is drilled.
6. Through the years that my trusty speed gun was working, I have found
that up till about 15 years old, the moving pitches are 10% less than
FB speed. So, a 50mph FB means moving pitches should be around
45. The difference moves to 5% as the kids go through high
school.
So much for my intended short post, which took over 2 hours. Take care all. I'm off to bed. Oops. No, still have to write e-mails to China. LOL.

[abbygale]

Thanks for the breakdown.

What would be a solid way to work on increasing spin while staying with the internal rotation mechanics? Does the elbow snap contribute mainly to ball speed and does the wrist/finger snap determine ball rotation speed?

[Mark H]

TX and others can answer better than me but I'll offer this in the interim. Internal rotation, elbow snap, wrist and fingers...it's all one thing. It's all part of the kinetic chain. The shoulder to the fingers is the whipping loop. Sure the arm has stiff sections and joints but you keep it as loose and whip like as possible. This creates both velocity and rpm's. Same thing overhand.

[CoachFP]

Tx, you advocate a high follow through on the drop? Why not a follow through across the body. You want the ball to go down so your follow through should be low. Conversely a rise ball follow through should be high to the opposite shoulder. You also say that hand/fingers don't add power to the ball, only spin? Maybe if you are doing your lawnmower business. The snap of the elbow, then wrist, then fingers impart speed to the ball. That is one reason why a true peel drop is faster than a rise ball since the fingers are behind the ball. I get the feeling some of your teaching is not based on the proper physics or mechanics of a pitched ball.