Different Pitching rules...

In the US, the growth, popularity, and money in the sport of Fastpitch is in NCAA college softball, not in international play.

The ASA is a US centric organization that recruits their talent from NCAA programs at the top level. In order for the ASA to change, you'd have to get the NCAA to change. NCAA is slow to change and will do health studies on the mechanics before making any decisions. If it was proven that the hopping and leaping were safe or more safe, then it might have a chance, but I doubt it.

-W

Scotty...I am curious as to your definition of a "crow hop".

My definition revolves around the rule that was posted. The act of establishing a new push off point not on the pitcher's plate. It is illegal in every rule set that I am aware of, including ASA Men's FP. The leap off of the pitcher's plate is legal in Men's FP, but not the crow hop. The leap allows both feet to be airborne, but does not allow the pitcher to land and establish a new push off for the pitch.

I have a feeling that what you are referring to as a "crow hop" is somewhat different.

The crow hop is illegal in every rule book. Whether the officials enforce the rules, that is a different kettle of fish.

The original poster is advocating the crow hop, leaping and trying find sympathgetic ears to change our rules here in the USA.

What the OP has to realize is that the vast majority involved in fastpitch in the USA DOESNT CARE ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE because of the ISF turning a blind eye to some of the pitching regulations.

When is the USA going to change so the rule breakers dont get called for IP's? NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

Softball was invented in the USA, where crow hopping and leaping are still illegal. Many of our college pitchers compete in ISF tournaments. Then they come back to NCAA and get called for IP's every 3rd or 4th pitch. Thanks alot ISF.

When is Australia going to play by the rules? I have worked with an Australian college pitcher going to school here in the US. She didnt,leap, crow hop or do anything illegal. She was legal in NCAA and would have been under ASA rules.

There are many former men pitchers that played ISF and teach open mechanics. When you stride out with stride foot high, you are begging to start leaping. Those pitchers will get a rude awakening at national and qualifying tournaments. When I see a pitcher get called for leaping in an NCAA tournament, I have to laugh and wonder 'Who the heck taught YOU how to pitch??

You do whatever you want with your students in your country. Just realize we here will NEVER swallow what some people try and shove down our throats. Neither will the ASA.

I have tremendous respect for the pitchers I have had the pleasure of meeting, from Australia and New Zealand and their accomplishments over the years. However, if they won those trophies by pitching illegally, that respect goes down the toilet as far as my opinion goes.

knightsb said:

Not sure if I have the correct rule set, but I Googled "ISF Rule Book 2013" which took me to this link:

http://www.isfsoftball.org/english/rules_standards/rulebook.pdf


Rule 1, Section 20:
CROW HOP. (FP ONLY)
A Crow hop is defined as the act of a pitcher who does not push off from the pitcher's plate to deliver the ball. THIS IS AN ILLEGAL ACT if the pitcher steps off the pitcher’s plate , thereby establishing a second impetus (or starting point) and then pushes off from the new starting point and completes the delivery. NOTE: The pitcher may leap, from the pitcher’s plate , land and , with a continuous motion , deliver the ball to the plate. The pivot foot may push off and/or follow through with this continuous action and this is NOT considered a crow hop.


Personally, I can live with a leap. I cannot stand a replant....

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From the way the umpires seem to be calling it over here in Australia and what pitchers at ISF tournaments seem to be doing in the men's I think the wording of the ISF rule change isn't accurate and that is something that is concerning. One of the reasons the ISF changed the laws I have been told is because the line umpires had trouble been able to see if the back foot was breaking contact with the ground. If they struggle to call that then I can imagine that trying to spot a replant definitively would be even more difficult.

I think the replant bit in the rules is a attempt to stop pitchers from leaping and then basically doing a old style jump and drag from where they land thus getting a extra step in before they even begin their pitch. There are some men's pitchers over here in Australia that have actually worked out how to do the hop land and then launch into a pitch from there. The dead give away they are doing this is that they land with the ball still in their glove. The umpires need to call pitchers that don't separate their hands at the beginning of the pitching action and this will eliminate players from having their cake and eating it so to speak.

If you separate your hands then you wont be able to generate any real speed as the arm circle motion will need to be to slow to give you time to get through your footwork before releasing the ball. Hope that makes sense? I know they were trying to call pitchers for this more under the category that they are concealing the ball in a attempt to stop pitchers from doing this. I play against several A grade pitchers that do this and get away with it and I know they also play Nationals here and don't get called.

Like any rule that gets changed people will try to stretch things and take as much advantage as they can while there is still grey areas in the new rules been interpreted. I feel the ISF are not worried to much about the replant as long as its in the continuous motion of a pitch and its a little push off and not a pitcher trying to have their cake and eat it and do a leap and then the jump and drag after that.

I guess at the end of this year the rules may/ can be changed or modified so lets hope some of this stuff will get defined better in the rules so everyone can be on the same page.

Amy in AZ. said:

It has been my experience that the replant really jars a young person's lower back - every pitch. In a grown man, that doesn't occur (as much), but some of the men are still experiencing back pain. Pitching should not hurt. It should be a rhythmic and easy flow, not herky, jerky.

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Agree with what you are saying, from my experience of playing mens fastpitch here in Australia and having coached junior boys where pretty much all pitchers crow hop now I have seen many different variations of pitching techniques with crow hop actions. Some do it well and others do it not so well. Like any pitching action if you don't have sound mechanics then your heading for a injury very soon as softball pitching is very challenging physically. Crow hop style pitching is defiantly a tougher pitch to master as there is more mechanics involved and the flip side is more can go wrong.

With my junior girls that are learning to hop I pretty much tell them if they want to hop its their choice but I wont help them if they are not prepared to learn proper mechanics and put lots of work in as I don't want their injuries on my shoulders. I have a duty of care as a coach and I run weekly training sessions with camcorder and break down their action into parts and build it up slowly and wont let them move on until they have sound and consistent mechanics. No different from when I teach jump and drag as well but I make it very clear to anyone wanting to hop that its a tougher riskier action to learn and unless they are 100% committed to learning correct mechanics then I wont help them learn it.

Ajaywill said:

Scotty...I am curious as to your definition of a "crow hop".

My definition revolves around the rule that was posted. The act of establishing a new push off point not on the pitcher's plate. It is illegal in every rule set that I am aware of, including ASA Men's FP. The leap off of the pitcher's plate is legal in Men's FP, but not the crow hop. The leap allows both feet to be airborne, but does not allow the pitcher to land and establish a new push off for the pitch.

I have a feeling that what you are referring to as a "crow hop" is somewhat different.

Click to expand...

I guess this is the hard bit with trying to illustrate what I mean when I say crow hop in words in a forum, over here in Australia its pretty much widely accepted in male softball both senior and junior and there is many variations of it. Some pitchers are not doing it with great mechanics so they are not getting a advantage at all and if anything are disadvantaged and then there are the ones that do it in a nice balanced and continuous action and use it to their advantage fairly and then there are the ones that push the boundaries and try to get more advantage than the rule change intended.

My reference to crow hop is the balanced and continuous action. The hands separate then the right foot of a right handed pitcher hops forwards and then the left leg lands out in front with the weight transferring from back leg to front leg as the arm whips through and this brings the hips behind the pitching arm as the wrist flicks to push the ball through. There is a replant purely for weight transfer and to help push the hip through but not for a secondary push off to gain more ground on the batter to shorten the distance.

I think this is the kind of pitch ISF are trying to encourage with the rule changes to pitching. I believe if this is done with correct mechanics it takes less toll on the body and is a better balanced pitch by allowing the body to support itself. Jump and drag action puts a lot of pressure on the front landing knee and with the back leg dangling behind in the dirt it means the shoulders and core do all the work to get the hip to push through which takes a toll on that area.

I used to pitch the old jump and drag action and I have now changed to have the hop in my action and I feel much better after games now and while im pitching it feels so much easier. I haven't mastered it enough yet to get my speed up to what it was before I changed my action over so I don't know if that action gets more speed but I do feel personally it helps you generate your speed with less toll on your body. I guess the other factor is that its nice to not have to buy new cleats every season after my toes are torn apart from dragging.

Ajaywill said:

Scotty...I am curious as to your definition of a "crow hop".

My definition revolves around the rule that was posted. The act of establishing a new push off point not on the pitcher's plate. It is illegal in every rule set that I am aware of, including ASA Men's FP. The leap off of the pitcher's plate is legal in Men's FP, but not the crow hop. The leap allows both feet to be airborne, but does not allow the pitcher to land and establish a new push off for the pitch.

I have a feeling that what you are referring to as a "crow hop" is somewhat different.

Click to expand...

I guess this is the hard bit with trying to illustrate what I mean when I say crow hop in words in a forum, over here in Australia its pretty much widely accepted in male softball both senior and junior and there is many variations of it. Some pitchers are not doing it with great mechanics so they are not getting a advantage at all and if anything are disadvantaged and then there are the ones that do it in a nice balanced and continuous action and use it to their advantage fairly and then there are the ones that push the boundaries and try to get more advantage than the rule change intended.

My reference to crow hop is the balanced and continuous action. The hands separate then the right foot of a right handed pitcher hops forwards and then the left leg lands out in front with the weight transferring from back leg to front leg as the arm whips through and this brings the hips behind the pitching arm as the wrist flicks to push the ball through. There is a replant purely for weight transfer and to help push the hip through but not for a secondary push off to gain more ground on the batter to shorten the distance.

I think this is the kind of pitch ISF are trying to encourage with the rule changes to pitching. I believe if this is done with correct mechanics it takes less toll on the body and is a better balanced pitch by allowing the body to support itself. Jump and drag action puts a lot of pressure on the front landing knee and with the back leg dangling behind in the dirt it means the shoulders and core do all the work to get the hip to push through which takes a toll on that area.

I used to pitch the old jump and drag action and I have now changed to have the hop in my action and I feel much better after games now and while im pitching it feels so much easier. I haven't mastered it enough yet to get my speed up to what it was before I changed my action over so I don't know if that action gets more speed but I do feel personally it helps you generate your speed with less toll on your body. I guess the other factor is that its nice to not have to buy new cleats every season after my toes are torn apart from dragging.

Hey Scotty, another Aussie here.

Crow hopping is still illegal, though the men do continue to do it. And will continue to do it beside getting called. (Not sure why you think the umpires aren't calling, they do. A number of IPs were called at the 19s men national championship last year)

LEAPING however is legall. Wich is what the American women do as well.

halskinner said:

The crow hop is illegal in every rule book. Whether the officials enforce the rules, that is a different kettle of fish.

The original poster is advocating the crow hop, leaping and trying find sympathgetic ears to change our rules here in the USA.

What the OP has to realize is that the vast majority involved in fastpitch in the USA DOESNT CARE ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE because of the ISF turning a blind eye to some of the pitching regulations.

When is the USA going to change so the rule breakers dont get called for IP's? NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

Softball was invented in the USA, where crow hopping and leaping are still illegal. Many of our college pitchers compete in ISF tournaments. Then they come back to NCAA and get called for IP's every 3rd or 4th pitch. Thanks alot ISF.

When is Australia going to play by the rules? I have worked with an Australian college pitcher going to school here in the US. She didnt,leap, crow hop or do anything illegal. She was legal in NCAA and would have been under ASA rules.

There are many former men pitchers that played ISF and teach open mechanics. When you stride out with stride foot high, you are begging to start leaping. Those pitchers will get a rude awakening at national and qualifying tournaments. When I see a pitcher get called for leaping in an NCAA tournament, I have to laugh and wonder 'Who the heck taught YOU how to pitch??

You do whatever you want with your students in your country. Just realize we here will NEVER swallow what some people try and shove down our throats. Neither will the ASA.

I have tremendous respect for the pitchers I have had the pleasure of meeting, from Australia and New Zealand and their accomplishments over the years. However, if they won those trophies by pitching illegally, that respect goes down the toilet as far as my opinion goes.

Click to expand...

Sorry for taking a while to reply, different time zones with me been in Australia, over here in Australia the ISF laws have been adopted and still my girls are the only pitchers we see in female softball here utilising it. Its very taboo and its actually quite heated when raised. I guess everyone for so long were so vigilant on stamping it out when juniors started to show any sign that they were hopping that its hard to change those views.

Since softball got taken of the Olympics program it has really declined here in Australia. Not many young coaches out there and not many people thinking outside the square unfortunately. Been that there has been a fair bit of conjecture with my girls having the hop in their pitching action I decided to look online and see what some of the other pitchers out there have gone through since the rule change was bought in.

It was then that I discovered that USA college comps ect haven't adopted the new laws. I thought at the start "hey USA are the top of womens softball and they would be cutting edge" so im sure they are all over these new laws and maybe I can see some stories about how players and coaches dealt with the controversy that seems to be around girls adopting the new ISF laws in their pitching actions and as you can imagine I was quite shocked to see that the battle in USA hasn't even begun.

I agree that USA has the big leagues and if there is any kind of money at all in softball it will be in USA. That kind of pull might very well out weight anything ISF are trying to change and ASA could very well win that battle. Its pretty concerning for the other countries that have adopted the ISF new pitching laws like Australia in good faith could be getting a bum steer so to speak.

The way its played out here in Australia is pretty much hopping is accepting and wide spread in male senior and junior softball and I don't know of any coach that now teaches boys to jump and drag and the game has been revolutionized by the hopping pitching action. Adam Folkard pitched Australia to a men's world title with a crow hop action and Australia have been strong in under 19 men's internationally for many years now. New Zealand are also the beez kneez of men's softball and they have the hop in their action as well.

USA don't seem to be anywhere near as much as a force in men's as they are in women's but I would imagine that losing players to baseball would be a huge factor in that. Over here in Australia the feel is that its ok for males to hop but not females. This is what I find most frustrating, if its a superior action in boys and everyone accepts that then why is it so wrong in women's? Im just trying to make sense of that?

The ISF rules are the same both male and female pitchers but one is taboo and the other is widely accepted. Try telling my girls they cant do it as they are not boys? They are proving some people wrong over here that's for sure. The worrying thing is that we have a sport where juniors put in so much work to master it and we have different governing bodies making up rules that can flush all their work down the toilet depending on what country they are in when they want to play some ball.

Lets hope that softball gets back in the 2020 Olympics and that everyone can be bought into line and play by the same rules, whether your pro crow hop or pro jump and drag its only fair that we are all governed by the same rules so that everyone is playing on a level playing field and we go with one or the other.

Lozza said:

Hey Scotty, another Aussie here.

Crow hopping is still illegal, though the men do continue to do it. And will continue to do it beside getting called. (Not sure why you think the umpires aren't calling, they do. A number of IPs were called at the 19s men national championship last year)

LEAPING however is legall. Wich is what the American women do as well.

Click to expand...

I wasn't at the 19 nationals this year as it was in Perth but a boy I coach played for Vic, he crow hops and there is a replant but its all continuous action and he has never been called for IP. I think everyone has different ideas on what a crow hop is but I do know that the pitchers that carry the ball and don't start their arm circle until they replant is a real issue.