Lower back maintenance - A question to you cagey veterans of pitching out there.

Update -

DD going "live" this Friday :-0

It's only planned for one inning in a pool game that will be "out-of-hand" winning or losing (in a local tourney too).

So it should be low-pressure and low-expectation, just the right thing for her to step back into the circle.

I am WAY more nervous for her than at any time in her career so far......

~gulp~

My daughter was recently diagnosed with an 8* curve at the top and 16* curve at the bottom of her spine. This is on the cusp of Scoleosis - What has helped her is Yoga and core strength. Posture in everyday events - she's a typical teen and hunches - but using the exercise ball to do sit ups is best - nothing that puts her directly in contact with the hard ground. Running long distances seems to be an agitator to her condition as well - granted I think that's because she hates to run! But planks, and other core exercises has helped her. Icy Hot is her friend and long stretches to loosen up the muscles are necessary. Her coach makes sure that she does more than just the minimum stretching and I try to get her to do things daily even when she's "off". Keeping those stomach muscles engaged is going to be the key. good luck!

Interesting similar story there 8=great.

I can relate to your mention about the hunching and such. I call my DD "The Duke" as when she walks she always reminds me of John Wayne. It's a slithering swagger walk that along with her constant slouching would always make her appear much shorter than she is. When I told people she is 5'11" folks would think I am lying. Now that she has been core-building it appears she is growing again right before my very eyes.

Core IS king!

Good luck to you too my friend.

RubberBiscuit said:

Would love to hear from ANYBODY who even hears about any softball pitcher that went through a spondy (spondylolysis - stress fracture of the 'pars interarticularis'.

I keep on reading about the "silent but frequent" occurrence of this pitcher ailment but to date I have only met one dad who's DD had the EXACT same injury who is also a riseball specialist as my DD.

Anyone???

Click to expand...

Thanks for the details RB. Please keep us appraised of your DD's progress. My 13 Yr old DD, 12U pitcher has never had any injuries prior to her back hurting a little during warmups and then significantly more during a tournament game the weekend of 6/22. Hurt bad enough she couldn't pitch on Sunday. Took her to ortho, chiro, PT, etc. and pretty much had shut her down since then with PT focusing on core strengthening and stretching which seems like it was the right thing to do even though they thought it was a muscular/ligament issue at the time. We leave tomorrow early for ASA Nationals and due to my finding this thread had an MRI performed this week. Ortho confirmed today the micro fracture. Since we didn't have a confirmed diagnosis at the time she batted last weekend with no pain although running she could "feel something". No pitching the past 5 weeks outside of easy spin work and some 25% effort. Looks like she will have to be head cheerleader in Tennessee at this point although the PT indicated that if she can swing without pain she could bat. The jarring of running could cause some discomfort so not sure what to do. She is a big part of what got us qualified for nationals both hitting and pitching and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity so not sure what to do. my DD thinks she can still bat but we believe she needs to have all pain gone before playing again.

Regarding the Rise Ball, we began focusing on the rise ball in the late Fall knowing that, the drop and change are the primary long term pitches and had pushed her coaches to call more rises to allow her to pitch. Feel terrible about that now as I believe this is probably what led to her condition. I wonder if there is a better way to throw that pitch without the spine tilt at front foot landing and release that would reduce the torque on the lower back. Anyone with any insight would be much appreciated.

RB, do you think with her being 5 weeks in we should stick with the core work for another 4-6 weeks prior to attempting to truly throw again? Would put her 9-11 weeks out from initial injury. Our local ortho said something like this typically takes 6 or so weeks to heal but from your thread doesn't seem like that will be long enough. Any thoughts and how is your DD doing at this time?

If you are talking about a lumbar stress fracture, there is no 'Initial injury'. They do no happen as a single incident injury. They are caused over time because of mechanics that are not safe and placing great stress on the lumbar spine.

It might not have caused a great deal of pain until a particular game, but that is not what caused it, that is only when she first felt the symptoms of it.

It was not because of learning any riseball. You need to focus on her overall mechanics to figure out what EXACTLY she has been doing over time that caused this.

Your daughter is injured and it is her mechanics that caused it, made it worse and might even make it more worse soon.

What is the value on her lower back for the rest of her life?? Weigh that vs a trip to the nationals and see what your parenting scales say.

No brainer for me.

Do you have a recommendation as to how we go about finding out what is wrong mechanically that could have contributed to this occurring? We live in Southern California. My thoughts on what I was calling the "initial injury" were based on her going from no pain, soreness, symptoms whatsoever after having pitched a lot over the past 5 years to pretty serious pain that presented itself pretty much all at once.

I saw several posts that seemed to indicate that the rise ball was somewhat of a common denominator and she has been taught to throw that pitch by tilting her back as part of it. Seemed like it could have been a factor but maybe not. I could probably post a short video, although not sure from how long ago if you thought you might see something and were willing to take a look. Thanks.

A video from the throwing side is always informative. One from a few years back also, that would be good to.

The two causes of spinal stress fractures thai Know have caused spinal stress fractures of the lumbar spine;

1. Doing a 'Forward Dip' at the start of the motions. That is the act of bending way down in front as you start the motions and then coming back up AS you start your push forward.


2. Standing Tall at the finish of your stride. The foot, ankle and knee are the body's brakes and shock absorbers to stop you when walking, running, pitching, etc. If you 'Stand tall' and try and stop your forward momentum the lumbar area of the spine will absorb a great deal of that stress, the weight of the upper body at landing foot touchdown. If the body is on a backwards l;ean at landing foot touchdown, the Shor\ck absorbers absorb the vast majority of the stress, Because of the backwards lean, the ENTIRE SPINE absorbs what energy / stress is left over. This is how the spine is supposed to absorb any landing shock.


I would suspect there are other reasons that could cause a spinal stress fracture but I have yet to see or hear any of them.

In every case of thast diagnosis, it didnt happen overnight. It always seems to be a case of doing that motion for a few years or longer.

On thisd board and others it seems that half the time those injuries are mis-diagnosed at first. They have been diagnosed as muscular problems the majority of the time. I always push for the scan even disagreeing with the good doctors and PTs.

An MRI is the ONLY way to rule a spinal stress fracture out. Assume the worst and hope foir the best. I have heard and seen Doctors play the insyrance game too many times. Dont let that happen, push for the MRI if your pitcher has lower back pain when pitching.


.

I think some injuries are comming from a having to have it now mentality and keeping up with the Jones's. I see boys all time throwing their arms out pitching and its usually from poor mechanics and crazy dads. A very good pitching coach gave it up because parents wanted thier 10 year olds throwing curves and sliders. In softball parents wanting their kids throwing 5 pitches by the end of the summer. If that doesnt happen then they are not a good coach. There is a physical aspects to throwing different pitches and most kids are not ready. Hal is right on the money about stamina and spinal stresses. That is why I am not a fan of pitch counts and young kids trying to throw 5 different pitches.

RubberBiscuit said:

Would love to hear from ANYBODY who even hears about any softball pitcher that went through a spondy (spondylolysis - stress fracture of the 'pars interarticularis'.

I keep on reading about the "silent but frequent" occurrence of this pitcher ailment but to date I have only met one dad who's DD had the EXACT same injury who is also a riseball specialist as my DD.

Anyone???

Click to expand...

Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your story. We are also going through this right now with our DD. She is not a riseball specialist. She is long, lean and strong - but we realize now that she never really focused specifically on core strength. She began having issues as she transitioned from HS to TB this year. We originally thought it was muscular, but after talking with her pitching coach and doing some research (where I found your post) we took her to a sports med specialist who ordered a bone scan. She is now doing PT and in a brace for 8-12 weeks. She will return to pitching in the Fall. Since being diagnosed we've heard from 2 other pitchers in our area that have the same diagnosis. One has made a full recovery and has been pitching full force all summer. The other is in the process.

I have been following your post and your daughter's progress and I admire the way you and your DD have been handling this situation with patience. We are grateful that you are willing to share your experience.

djlbc said:

Thanks for the details RB. Please keep us appraised of your DD's progress. My 13 Yr old DD, 12U pitcher has never had any injuries prior to her back hurting a little during warmups and then significantly more during a tournament game the weekend of 6/22. Hurt bad enough she couldn't pitch on Sunday. Took her to ortho, chiro, PT, etc. and pretty much had shut her down since then with PT focusing on core strengthening and stretching which seems like it was the right thing to do even though they thought it was a muscular/ligament issue at the time. We leave tomorrow early for ASA Nationals and due to my finding this thread had an MRI performed this week. Ortho confirmed today the micro fracture. Since we didn't have a confirmed diagnosis at the time she batted last weekend with no pain although running she could "feel something". No pitching the past 5 weeks outside of easy spin work and some 25% effort. Looks like she will have to be head cheerleader in Tennessee at this point although the PT indicated that if she can swing without pain she could bat. The jarring of running could cause some discomfort so not sure what to do. She is a big part of what got us qualified for nationals both hitting and pitching and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity so not sure what to do. my DD thinks she can still bat but we believe she needs to have all pain gone before playing again.

Regarding the Rise Ball, we began focusing on the rise ball in the late Fall knowing that, the drop and change are the primary long term pitches and had pushed her coaches to call more rises to allow her to pitch. Feel terrible about that now as I believe this is probably what led to her condition. I wonder if there is a better way to throw that pitch without the spine tilt at front foot landing and release that would reduce the torque on the lower back. Anyone with any insight would be much appreciated.

RB, do you think with her being 5 weeks in we should stick with the core work for another 4-6 weeks prior to attempting to truly throw again? Would put her 9-11 weeks out from initial injury. Our local ortho said something like this typically takes 6 or so weeks to heal but from your thread doesn't seem like that will be long enough. Any thoughts and how is your DD doing at this time?

Click to expand...

Well DD was supposed to get in this last weekend in a game that was well In-Hand or one that was way Out-Of-Hand. Unfortunately every stinkin game was a struggle in battling through the losers bracket losing the first bracket game Saturday then on Sunday playing six games that day to end up losing the 2nd final to get second place. So DD will have to wait another weekend…. I have been this strict about her return so far I am NOT going to alter the plan at this point (Doctor & I want her first live game to be a no-stress inconsequential moment.)

She is throwing in practice and I would guess she is about 85-90% the speed of what she was in March but her movement and control is better than what I thought it would be at this point.

I am very happy at this point with our diligence to the doctors program and I am very optimistic on the outcome (knowing that it still could come back – the risk DD is willing to take).

Back to more “info” and your question:

Here is what I have read - I AM NOT A DOCTOR - please remember that. BUT since ortho "specialists", and not surprisingly chiro’s, have proven themselves (at least here in my area) to NOT be accurate in this diagnosis I feel OK in giving my well-read opinions.

• To your question specifically => IF she has been dormant and had no torqueing action on the spine for 5 weeks then I would still wait another 3+weeks. Like Hal states it is too difficult to know when the break occurred and when the healing might have started so you have to start the clock when the total non-torquing dormant period began. No earlier. (I know this sounds crappy to active players BUT we are messing with the spine here….)
• If it is a "pars" break I think it's good to identify if it is a unilateral (spondylolysis) or bilateral break (spondylolisthesis). The latter being much worse in my book as the vertebrae can move transversely. Both identified by MRI. (My DD had/has unilateral)
• But a large % of pars-break patients do not feel the pain and a large portion of bilateral pars-break athletes find out much later in life that they have spondylolisthesis (Like I did - hinting on another possible thread about potential heredity issues. I did have pain, although not as bad as my DD did, and I have to "maintain" my back even today with my 25% displaced L4.).
• SOME athletes have aggravated the break so many times at this point that the healing gets "tainted" and the only way to fuse the pars back to the vertebrae is to screw it in to the vertebrae (I am sure nobody likes the thought of this - but there are professional athletes who return just fine after this procedure - but at this point I think you have to look at the sport putting you at risk as your career)
• I am not too confident the riseball is the standout culprit. I think it’s just overall reps and a predisposition in these early teen years for this kind of fracture complication.
• Even though Hal & I see eye-to-eye on allot here I have my doubts on “bad mechanics” being a large standout factor. Again I personally point back to reps as being the key along with many many associated factors (batting reps that add with pitches, pitching on hard surfaces, yes the mechanics too, shoe condition, and physiological specifics to an athlete = height/weight/foot arch/build/etc)


On a final note DD & I are thrilled to be of any service at all to you dedicated pitchers & pitchers families. It takes a special breed to pitch at the national TB level – that means the pitchers AND their families. We folks NEED all the help we can get going through this whirlwind called “fulfilling our DD’s dreams”.

God bless.