Absolute vs Nice to Have?

In my time reading and posting on this forum, I've read all kinds of critique and criticism. A recent question that I saw in a post led me to this thread. From the following list of common flaws, which ones do you consider to be show stoppers? Which ones should we accept as tolerable variance? I understand that there are different levels of severity that can make a fault more or less critical...so lets just assume for the sake of simplicity that the variance from the optimal is moderate. Take severe cases out of play. Let's also assume that the subject is already throwing with IR as opposed to HE.
A. Lockout of the throwing elbow.
B. Turning the pivot foot prior to launch.
C. Glove swim.
D. Falling foreward at release.
E. Off the power Line
F. Closing the hips vs staying open.
G. Lack of Drive off the rubber.
H. Chicken Wing \ Shoulder shrugging vs staying long and loose.
I: Other (Please describe)
J: Poor follow through.

I think this would be good info for the parents of pitchers in this age bracket.

Yes... I'm actually so confused myself on all of the different "styles" and "absolutes". I read through these posts and have watched Hillhouse, but we live in Georgia and pay for weekly lessons and I can't very well say... " um, could you teach my daughter like to pitch like Hillhouse does?"
I look for all the "wrong" ways to pitch and try & keep my eye on, but she is finding her own way... So I'm with FR and would like to know what most think are deal breaking pitch habits??

And also what age group is this referencing?

IMHO... the train that the (C.)Glove Swimming puts you on. It can pull you to be closed, and dominates the follow thru.

And also what age group is this referencing?

Click to expand...

10u is what I'm answering to.

FrozenRope said:

In my time reading and posting on this forum, I've read all kinds of critique and criticism. A recent question that I saw in a post led me to this thread. From the following list of common flaws, which ones do you consider to be show stoppers? Which ones should we accept as tolerable variance? I understand that there are different levels of severity that can make a fault more or less critical...so lets just assume for the sake of simplicity that the variance from the optimal is moderate. Take severe cases out of play. Let's also assume that the subject is already throwing with IR as opposed to HE.
A. Lockout of the throwing elbow.
B. Turning the pivot foot prior to launch.
C. Glove swim.
D. Falling foreward at release.
E. Off the power Line
F. Closing the hips vs staying open.
G. Lack of Drive off the rubber.
H. Chicken Wing \ Shoulder shrugging vs staying long and loose.
I: Other (Please describe)
J: Poor follow through.

I think this would be good info for the parents of pitchers in this age bracket.

Click to expand...

I'll take a whack at this list and put my $.02 in.
A) Deal breaker. Most activities involve leading with the middle joint bent to created whip and speed. Think kicking a ball, throwing a Frisbee. throwing overhand or batting, all lead with a bend middle joint.
B) Not a deal breaker. Most pitchers turn their foot to some degree. As long as they are not pivoting extremely to say more than 25 degrees, I can live with a little, less than 15.
C) Deal breaker. I call it deal breaker if the glove is getting way behind the shoulder. If the glove arm is parallel to their shoulder or in front of I am ok. The glove will be off the power line when the shoulders are at their release angle. So I guess it depends how the term is defined.
D) Deal breaker. Must have good posture and balance at release. Not to say they may not have a little ab crunch at release but never walk out of a pitch at the release.
E) Same as the glove swim. I don't want the stride foot to be going over the line to the throwing arm side ever and I give them a couple inches of tolerance on the glove side of the line. Consistency is more important to me here than having the toe touching the line.
F) Deal breaker. If you mean slamming the door where the hip, shoulder and hand all come through at the same time. The proper sequencing needs to be established along with the proper angle of the shoulder and hips at release.
G) Not a deal breaker. If they are getting some drag away from the mound and not just stepping. From my experience a pitcher can throw close to 90% of their speed with mostly just the arm circle so I'd rather get everything else right and keep adding to the stride as they get older and stronger. It is important but not what I harp at a younger pitcher about. If they do walk throughs and get aggressive with their push it comes naturally to most.
H) I think these are two different things. I think that chicken winging is caused by not letting the elbow release after the pitch is released and the arm allowed to extend toward the catcher for a short distance before it finishes naturally across the body. Shrugging the throwing shoulder might be a natural motion as part of the follow through but it should be forced.
I) Other. I really watch the front foot to be sure it comes down at a 30 - 45 degree angle. Some pitchers want to land at 90 degrees and block their hips from rotating to the release angle. This is hard on the knee and hip joint and it causes the pitcher to fight their natural arm circle path. Big deal for me.
H) If posture, balance and release angles are right the follow through should be a non issue.
JMHO.

All of the above will absolutely affect the speed, spin, or location of the pitch, regardless of age. Learning how to do all of these things correctly and consistently is what makes pitching a journey that takes many years to perfect.

FrozenRope said:

In my time reading and posting on this forum, I've read all kinds of critique and criticism. A recent question that I saw in a post led me to this thread. From the following list of common flaws, which ones do you consider to be show stoppers? Which ones should we accept as tolerable variance? I understand that there are different levels of severity that can make a fault more or less critical...so lets just assume for the sake of simplicity that the variance from the optimal is moderate. Take severe cases out of play. Let's also assume that the subject is already throwing with IR as opposed to HE.
A. Lockout of the throwing elbow.
B. Turning the pivot foot prior to launch.
C. Glove swim.
D. Falling foreward at release.
E. Off the power Line
F. Closing the hips vs staying open.
G. Lack of Drive off the rubber.
H. Chicken Wing \ Shoulder shrugging vs staying long and loose.
I: Other (Please describe)
J: Poor follow through.

I think this would be good info for the parents of pitchers in this age bracket.

Click to expand...

Great thread.

Alright - time to hear my strong opinionated view on these.

Here would be my reordered suggestion for the best bang-for-the-buck for an average young pitcher to focus on (Worst problem to least)

A. Lockout of the throwing elbow. => anything affecting the "whip" is bad in my book.
D. Falling forward at release. =>
H. Chicken Wing \ Shoulder shrugging vs staying long and loose.
E. Off the power Line
1. Crow-hopping => Wipe this out before they get too used to it
B. Turning the pivot foot prior to launch. => 0 to 45 degrees can be just fine in my book.
C. Glove swim. => So many D1 pitchers do it with success. After the initial glove-shove it can swim almost all it wants.
J: Poor follow through. => Main point here is the ball is gone....
G. Lack of Drive off the rubber. => Important for the final speed but is something that is more easily worked on after some of the above

One of the biggest differences I see is what some pitchers feel is the right # of pitches per week versus another. It is so amusing to hear a pitcher say they think they are working very hard by pitching 2 days a week when standing right next to them is another pitcher that does five..... (the two-day a weekers are always the one that say "hmmm my DD just can't get the accuracy,.....what might be her mechanical problem?......") Remember nothing replaces good old fashioned hard work.....

Maybe I missed it but - Landing foot coming down at 90 degrees - deal breaker.

There is only one absolute in regards to pitching - THE PITCHING REGULATIONS for national tournaments and qualifiers. For everything else involved in pitching, there are ALWAYS variables. Thats why they leave so much room for judgement calls.

Out in Left Field said:

Forgot one

Dissecting and overthinking by well-meaning parents and non-pitchers and then passing it on to the learning pitcher. Deal breaker.

Click to expand...

Hold it this statement is missing a party otherwise it would have been the best one here:

Dissecting and overthinking by well-meaning parents and non-pitchers AND PC'S and then passing it on to the learning pitcher.

RubberBiscuit said:

Hold it this statement is missing a party otherwise it would have been the best one here:

Dissecting and overthinking by well-meaning parents and non-pitchers AND PC'S and then passing it on to the learning pitcher.

Click to expand...

It's called paralysis by analysis - FEAR THIS

A. Lockout of the throwing elbow--deal breaker
B. Turning the pivot foot prior to launch. depends upon the extent of the problem
C. Glove swim. Some good pitchers do it. Really depends upon how forceful the swim action is.
D. Falling foreward at release. Deal breaker
E. Off the power Line depends upon how far off the power line the pitcher is.
F. Closing the hips vs staying open. Deal breaker
G. Lack of Drive off the rubber. Depends upon the level of play. 10U? Who cares. D1? Needs leg drive
H. Chicken Wing \ Shoulder shrugging vs staying long and loose. Deal breaker
I: Other (Please describe)
J: Poor follow through. depends upon how poor