timing is off

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Feb 3, 2010
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Pac NW
Sorry coach james--I should have quoted Ha! as I was trying to ask him if he can stay on his toe when pitching leap/drag style. I don't think it's possible, but could see it with step-style.
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
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Hey Ken, Leap and drag. Leap and drag without having a real strong forward momentum and speed for sure. But I( have seen it alot and had to fix it. Never wasnt to come down on the toes, never really want to have to come down with the stride footr anyway. Keep it very low to the ground.
 
Jul 14, 2008
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You know Hal I warn people all the time about people on here who create "strawman" arguments to support themselves. You've now done exactly that. You created an argument about "Heel Plant" to somehow bolster your position on this subject, so you can pretend to be arguing your point with me about it........

I never said "heel plant" defined anything.........I ONLY said when the foot is PLANTED FIRMLY against the ground, ground force reaction can do it's job as part of the whip effect........And the arm should be approaching parallel when PLANT occurs........

If YOU think the ball of the foot "touching down" is FIRM enough to create the "block/push-back" effect of ground force reaction, more power to you. BUT........"Any part of the foot touching the ground" is NOT a check point of where anything should be measured regarding arm circle..........

It is DEAD WRONG to assume that 1:00 is the optimum point at which the foot should be "planted"........And it is dead wrong to assume that "toe-touch" at 1:00 will result in "foot plant" that is optimum for whip........

Show me a high level pitcher whose arm is NOT almost, if not completely parallel to the ground when the foot is PLANTED........You won't find one..........

So do we want someone like Coach James telling his student "Hey.......Your timing is off.......You need to get your foot *DOWN* when your arm is at 1:00????"

Absolutely NOT IMO.........

Boardmember,

You can stand on your soapbox and fillibuster the topic if you want.

The stride foot landing on the ball of the foot happens and the heel coming down is an afterthought. When the heel touches down can vary greatly from piotch to pitcher. I have seen the heels of pitchers not touch the ground ubtil adter ball release. Landing foot touchdown is the exact indicator for the ball of the foot touching down. That is also what the Steadman - Hawkins report bases their recommendatyion of saying "The ball must be just into the backswing behind " at landing foot touchdown.

If you are saying at 3:00 behind at LFT but you are basing that on the heel touching down, that can explain the 3:00 statement. But, as I said, the heelk coming will vary from pitcher to pitcher and a great deal of time can elapse between LFT and the heel coming down.

I'm old and beat up but I can still throw a pitch and not let my heel touch down until after I release the ball.
 
Jun 14, 2011
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Field of Dreams
I rewatched the videos with the sound on and what she's talking about causes me to feel very uncomfortable with her teaching. The few available video examples teach a forced hip snap and follow through with the hand. I would strongly suggest looking at some video of your favorite NCAA, Pro and International pitchers and look for some correlation between her teaching and what you see. I'm hoping that these video examples are very old and don't represent her current teaching. (I know there's still a few videos floating around out there that Coach Enquist would probably like to see put out of circulation!)

I think that this is an issue with viewing drills that are designed to correct problems, Jen does not teach forced hip follow-thru but rather forward weight transfer similar to Doug Gillis, and as the weight comes forward, the hips close on their own.

If you would like to see footage of one of her students (since the age of 9) it is easy to find- Rachel Fico at LSU- Her students have an identifiable style that produces consistently high level pitchers, many of whom are currently at D1 schools (albeit not top 20 with the exception of RF). In person, the points that are emphasized in her lessons are in-line with what is discussed on this forum- which I can state without conjecture
 
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halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,681
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BM, I am going to assume that it was just the way you worded it and how vit was interpreted by me. But, I read it and interpreted it exactly like an inexperienced pitcher's dad would interpret it; 'When the stride foot comes down, the ball should be at 3:00 behind them'. That interpretation of your advice WILL GET KIDS HURT!

Ever see a clinic full of 8, 9 and 10 year old beginners, I mean JUST beginning pitchers? All of them started off by coach Dad. You will see them at lft with the ball way too early in the circle at 12;00 or even before. You will see them way late at2:30 to 3:00. They will throw as few as a dozen pitches, stop and say "I dont want to do this, it hurts". They will be holding their shoulder, in front, where the bicep ligament goes to the shoulder. Befopre any warm ups even begin, I would have to explain all that to the Dads and make sure the timing was at least acceptably close to 1:00 to 1:30.

It is the jarring effect of the landing and the arm position so far off that causes that causes that. It is very uncomfortable and WILL cause injury if they continue. This does not just apply to the youngest poitchers, it applies to every age bracket but the older ones have usually figured i t out on their own.

I AM MUCH MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THESE YOUNG PITCHER'S THROWING SHOULDER THAN I AM ABOUT THE ARM WHIP.

It's been a long time since I had to say this; I STRONGLY URGE EVERY PARENT TO DO YOURSELF EXACTLY WHAT THE INSTRUCTOR HAS ASKED YOU DAUGHTER TO DO. If it doesnt feel good, if it just doesnt feel right or if it flat does not feel safe, DONT DO IT AND DONT LET YOUR KID DO IT!

If you look back on all my posts and replies, you will find that I am always outspoken on anything I know that is not safe in pitching mechanics. I could care less who is saying it, I WILL speak out and I might not be very polite when I do.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE TIMES.
 
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Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
BM, I am going to assume that it was just the way you worded it and how vit was interpreted by me. But, I read it and interpreted it exactly like an inexperienced pitcher's dad would interpret it; 'When the stride foot comes down, the ball should be at 3:00 behind them'. That interpretation of your advice WILL GET KIDS HURT!

Oh my gaud Hal.........What a drama queen........

Which one of these world class pitchers got "hurt" because plant occured with the arm at 3:00???

Better yet.........Which one of these pitchers "touched down" at 1:00 in order to avoid your injury claims...........

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Maybe you should call their parents and warn them..........
 
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