I/R pitching DVDs
- Thread starter coach james
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
Relating to your comment about the problems associated with the transition from the 11" to the 12" ball, we solved that by never using the smaller ball to practice with. They only used the 11" for games. This was much like using a 14 ball to develop spin and hand strength. Never had any issues using the 11's at game time and made the transition to 12u a non event. This was a recommendation from the two mens fastpitcher players here in MD that originally taught my DD's to pitch. You know them. They were was also the one's who told us to get Bill's original video series because that's how they were going to be taught. I think both Bill and BM on the same sheet of music, but coming at it from slightly different perspectives. I see their points of emphasis as complimentary.
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
I never teach anyone to face the ball/palm toward 3rd base in any part of the circle. It may, as a result of the the pitch being thrown, rotate slightly from 12:00 facing forward slightly outward the back upward at 9:00 as the load prepares to "unload".
There is a reason I don't teach my students to "rotate the ball" to facing outward at the top of the circle........Its because I DO teach them that up the circle, the ball/palm SHOULD BE facing downward or inward. If you understand that from these positions up the circle, the arm/hand MUST ROTATE OVER THE TOP to get the ball facing outward toward 3rd base. More often then not, this creates "over rotation" over the top and puts the hand more on top of the ball at/over the top of the circle.......Which IMO is a FATAL FLAW to I/R mechanics.........
IOW........IF the thumb is facing inward on the way up the circle........The palm/ball are more NATURALLY facing forward at the top of the circle..........The only way to get the ball facing outward from this up the circle position is to BEGIN rotating the thumb OUTWARD to get the ball facing that direction.........I don't want my pitchers to begin rotation of the thumb OUTWARD on the way up the circle........
BM, I totally see that and will definitely have my daughter keep her thumb pointed inward on the way up because the ball gets to a good position almost naturally. I've asked you in the past about thinking pinky up on the way up to help keep a bend in the arm and you warned against it and now I see why...it really does lead to the ball facing behind the pitcher which can only be a push the ball down the backside situation. Over three years almost four being taught this by a well respected instructor in the area who does put D1's out there at times. I think some kids just get it but the one's that lock their arm in this case get one bad piece of instruction and boom!
Bill,
Before I comment about the above, I would like to say that I respect you as a pitching coach, I have bought several of your DVDs which are very good, and you have been gracious enough to answer a few pitching questions I have had through PM. With that said, I have to be honest with you that I am a little surpised that you have not even bothered to read Boardmembers "Internal Rotation" thread especially since your riseball video is featured in the very first post as Rick Pauly (Sarah's father) and BM discuss the arm whip; you have parents coming to you asking about IR; and you are a pitching expert who does this for a living. IMO, the explanation of the "arm whip" and sample drills offered by BM is a must read by anyone who teaches pitching mechanics. So my ask of you is not to turn a blind eye to the IR discussion because there really is "genius" imbedded in BM's words and I know even with your vast knowledge of pitching and teaching experience, you will find useful information that you can share with your students. The very best continue to learn and educate themselves. The IR thread is a must read even for pitching experts who might think they know everything there is to know. Thanks for your time.
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/1348-internal-rotation.html
Last edited:
- Apr 25, 2010
- 772
- 0
Considering I/R is a termed that was coined here, and this is not the end all be all of softball information, I think it's silly to think that a proven PC would alter their teachings based on some anonymous poster here. Also, given the amount of money that Bill's students pay to take lessons with him, I would assume that most of them are "naturals" and sort of perform I/R to some degree naturally. All of his students that I have seen with the exception of maybe 1, exhibit I/R to varying degrees.
In thinking about this, I think maybe when Bill tells the girls to face the ball towards third, it promotes the arm to rotate without overthinking what you are doing. For instance, my DD has the ball facing home on the way up, then turns the ball to "face 3rd" and eventually ends up with the hand pretty much under the ball.
Maybe Bill just uses a different way to skin that cat.
In thinking about this, I think maybe when Bill tells the girls to face the ball towards third, it promotes the arm to rotate without overthinking what you are doing. For instance, my DD has the ball facing home on the way up, then turns the ball to "face 3rd" and eventually ends up with the hand pretty much under the ball.
Maybe Bill just uses a different way to skin that cat.
- May 17, 2012
- 2,807
- 113
I find the whole situation odd when it comes to arm whip and IR. I don't understand why so many PCs teach the "hello elbow" or unnatural follow through when so few high level collegiate pitchers pitch that way.
When trying to explain this to other parents (only when I am asked) I tell them not to take my word for it and to go look at video of high level pitchers and then compare this to their DD. Are they doing the same thing?
In my opinion this is where we lose a lot girls at a younger age, pitching is difficult enough and then you compound it with incorrect mechanics.
Some PC's have said, "Well she forces the follow through but look how good she is". I always counter with, "But just think how great she could be if she was pitching with a natural arm movement instead of a forced one".
When trying to explain this to other parents (only when I am asked) I tell them not to take my word for it and to go look at video of high level pitchers and then compare this to their DD. Are they doing the same thing?
In my opinion this is where we lose a lot girls at a younger age, pitching is difficult enough and then you compound it with incorrect mechanics.
Some PC's have said, "Well she forces the follow through but look how good she is". I always counter with, "But just think how great she could be if she was pitching with a natural arm movement instead of a forced one".
- Jul 17, 2012
- 1,091
- 38
Just a question for those with the years of fastpitch experience. How far can a decent HE pitcher make it in the sport before they are rendered obsolete? Are there HE pitchers at the collegiate level? Are they prominant in the HS game? 16U, 14U?
Just curious.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,386
- 113
Socal, my lack of reading through the thread(s) is not a closed mind to what BM has said. And I'm sorry that I've disappointed you. I should clarify, when the topic first started, I did start reading the thread as I do almost all the new threads when I get time. And my having stopped reading wasn't due to disagreeing or anything of the sort.
Truth be told, I'm just a pretty simple guy. I don't follow things like that very well and find it hard to keep up. Even going back a few months ago when "Steve Huff" was posting on here, there was an ongoing battle about something and it just got to be too technical for me. I stopped following it. The only part of that I truly enjoyed was the implication that coaching in Denmark, Germany, Russia, etc. was some how an "honor". I got a good chuckle out of that. But that's a different subject.
I do not think or pretend that I "know it all". I do not think or believe I cannot continue to learn more. I am ALWAYS open to learning more. To know me in person you would know I have no ego. I don't believe that I am somehow better than anyone else because I was fortunate enough to have a nice pitching career. With that said, I would like to think I do an adequate job of teaching the same pitching motion that I use myself and explain WHY. I didn't have a pitching coach when I was learning, I asked a zillion questions to every pitcher I could find. The things I teach today are what I do myself, and I'm pretty sure "I/R" is involved in that.
But the truth is, I just don't follow things very well in that manner. Maybe I have ADHD, maybe I'm just a visual learner, or maybe it's something else. But I found a lot of the discussion to be confusing and I stopped following it. But maybe you're right... maybe I should try reading it again. YOU SEE... I can learn!!!
Bill
IR and Bill vs BM
I have been "teaching" my DD the natural method or IR since I first bought Bill's DVD "Building the House".. The whole thing came together when Boardmember explained the physiology of what was happening. They are both singing from the same song sheet. My DD has been to see Bill and he tweeked want she was doing to un-learn some old bad habits (created by me) that can basically only be seen by someone who really knows what they are doing.
The ball facing up on the downswing vs facing third is a slight variation. Some girls have diificulty keeping the ball facing up all the way during the downswing because of their physiology. My DD is one of those. Keeping the ball facing skywards hurt her shoulder and created an issue with her levator scapula that was fixed with some physio. So she faces the ball to third and continues to throw well. Bill's comment relative to the wrist being cupped and BM's comment on losing some of the kinetic energy (if not facing skyward) are the same but coming at the issue from different directions. They are both saying that the energy stored in the arm being led by the elbow, followed by the wrist and finally the fingers and being released at the right time is the natural way to throw a ball underhand. I hope I have not offended anyone by putting words in their mouth
Quite frankly, if it wasn't for these two gentlemen, my DD would probably have quit or be mired in houseleague. As it is she has been offered a spot on a DIII team in WV but is wrestling with whether to attend post secondary school there or here in Ontario. For some reason education has become more important. Whew!
I have been "teaching" my DD the natural method or IR since I first bought Bill's DVD "Building the House".. The whole thing came together when Boardmember explained the physiology of what was happening. They are both singing from the same song sheet. My DD has been to see Bill and he tweeked want she was doing to un-learn some old bad habits (created by me
) that can basically only be seen by someone who really knows what they are doing.The ball facing up on the downswing vs facing third is a slight variation. Some girls have diificulty keeping the ball facing up all the way during the downswing because of their physiology. My DD is one of those. Keeping the ball facing skywards hurt her shoulder and created an issue with her levator scapula that was fixed with some physio. So she faces the ball to third and continues to throw well. Bill's comment relative to the wrist being cupped and BM's comment on losing some of the kinetic energy (if not facing skyward) are the same but coming at the issue from different directions. They are both saying that the energy stored in the arm being led by the elbow, followed by the wrist and finally the fingers and being released at the right time is the natural way to throw a ball underhand. I hope I have not offended anyone by putting words in their mouth
Quite frankly, if it wasn't for these two gentlemen, my DD would probably have quit or be mired in houseleague. As it is she has been offered a spot on a DIII team in WV but is wrestling with whether to attend post secondary school there or here in Ontario. For some reason education has become more important. Whew!
