Lower body mechanics

What matters is that the KNEE of the drive through leg is pointed forward throughout the drive through, and the part of your big toe that you drag depends on your individual structure. My sister dragged her foot laces down (and threw 70+ in her day, for those doubting that this is a viable option). I dragged the side of my toe, but I have pronounced pronation in my ankles so it was natural for me to drag the side of my toe and still keep my knee pointed at my target.

Dragging the WHOLE SIDE of the foot is no good; too much friction, knee can't be pointed forward. There are elite pitchers who DO it, but they have success in spite of it, not because of it. Same with the top of the foot. Whether it's the top or the side, we're dealing with a minimal part of the big toe that should be dragging.

Carly said:

What matters is that the KNEE of the drive through leg is pointed forward throughout the drive through, and the part of your big toe that you drag depends on your individual structure. My sister dragged her foot laces down (and threw 70+ in her day, for those doubting that this is a viable option). I dragged the side of my toe, but I have pronounced pronation in my ankles so it was natural for me to drag the side of my toe and still keep my knee pointed at my target.

Dragging the WHOLE SIDE of the foot is no good; too much friction, knee can't be pointed forward. There are elite pitchers who DO it, but they have success in spite of it, not because of it. Same with the top of the foot. Whether it's the top or the side, we're dealing with a minimal part of the big toe that should be dragging.

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Carly, thank you for this post. That makes sense and gives DD a couple options to try. Keeping the knee down the power line seems to be the absolute, and the pivot foot dragging laces down, or side of big toe a style choice.

When you say knee pointed at the target, do you mean the front of the knee, or the inside of the knee... or does it matter? DD tends to point her knee more toward the third base dugout than at the catcher. Is this something we should work on?

I personally like the 45 degrees of both the push and plant foot. To me this is the best compromise to allow a pitcher to go from most-open to most closed to get the most power.

I agree that the drag on the whole side of the foot is not good.

lhowser said:

Here are two pitchers with great careers. Jenny flops her foot on it's side...then orients laces forward and finishes somewhat figure 4. Angela is laces straight to catcher, dosn't seem to open lower half all the way and has a killer riseball.

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Ihowsers

I really appreciate the two videos of Finch and Tincher which I actually think shows both of them dragging their toes at a 45 degree angle as they release and close to the same as they follow thru. I think laces down or facing the catcher as the ball is released does influence too much rotation of the hips at release and I personally don't think it is a primary cause of loss of power. ( I know Bill Hillhouse does clearly indicate the need for that rotation whom I respect greatly!) Your observation of Tincher not opening her hips all the way is a key insight and it is something I've been teaching for quite some time. Her reduced opening and closing of the hips thru the delivery I think is a huge key to her ability to maximize consistency, power and movement and she reduces risk of injury at the same time. Angela Tincher to me is the most ideal model out there- absolutely incredible!! ( I recognize this area here is highly controversial and deserves way more explanation; but just watch the simplicity of her actions and the awesome consistency of her results. To me it is off the charts.

knightsb said:

Carly, thank you for this post. That makes sense and gives DD a couple options to try. Keeping the knee down the power line seems to be the absolute, and the pivot foot dragging laces down, or side of big toe a style choice.

When you say knee pointed at the target, do you mean the front of the knee, or the inside of the knee... or does it matter? DD tends to point her knee more toward the third base dugout than at the catcher. Is this something we should work on?

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Sorry I missed this till today. I meant the front of the knee, and yes, you should work on it. The knee should be pointed forward during push off (when she's still facing completely forward anyway, so this should make sense) and then remain forward, becoming the driving force of the drive through. She should power her knee proactively down the power line to her catcher rather than just let the momentum of her body drag her leg along.

Rich Balswick said:

Your observation of Tincher not opening her hips all the way is a key insight and it is something I've been teaching for quite some time. Her reduced opening and closing of the hips thru the delivery I think is a huge key to her ability to maximize consistency, power and movement and she reduces risk of injury at the same time. Angela Tincher to me is the most ideal model out there- absolutely incredible!! ( I recognize this area here is highly controversial and deserves way more explanation; but just watch the simplicity of her actions and the awesome consistency of her results. To me it is off the charts.

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I see a Hello Elbow and a figure 4 finish.

Full video:

Knightsb

If you watch Tincher in competition against the US Olympic team provided by Ihower's post I don't think you will see any indication of hello elbow whatsoever. It's interesting to me how people look when they try to do it "correctly" apparently in a clinic setting.

I would just add that when I first responded here that I thought hello elbow meant a higher finish with the pitching elbow and hand rather than the simultaneous coming forward of the hip and pitching arm as the ball is released ( as described by Bill Hillhouse ). To me Angela Tincher basically has stable hips as she releases the ball NOT rotating her right hip forward significantly as she releases the ball; so that wouldn't qualify for hello elbow...... I might also add that I was horrified when I saw her pushing the ball down towards the floor as a throwing a drop drill; so she is not my perfect idol anymore

Hillhouse said:

Knightsb ... the drag foot is probably not the problem for your DD and her hips getting in the way. Make sure her STRIDE foot is turned to a 45 degree angle or so. If her foot/toes are pointing STRAIGHT to the catcher, her body will be square to the catcher. It's only when the stride foot turns that the rest of the body follows. Our bodies have a natural tendency to point in the direction of our toes, so if she's got her toes straight toward homeplate, then she's probably got her shoulders square too, then she will likely whack her hips.

In A LOT of cases, the figure 4 pitcher never closes her hips in the pitch... which loses a great deal of power. Why wouldn't you close your hips? Imagine a baseball pitcher getting sideways (like they are supposed to and the way a softball pitcher should) then never closing. They just get sideways and stay sideways. That's a lot of power being lost... and very unnatural.

Bill

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Bill

As we discuss things I'm respectively recognizing more of our differences. Above you are drawing a parallel between the function of the hips of a baseball pitcher and a softball pitcher. As much as I would like to, I see very little correlation. To me ideally the lower half ( from the hips down ) should only rotate 45 degrees as the stride foot is coming forward in the delivery with the shoulders over rotating them to facilitate the ball staying on the power line and then as the ball is approaching the hip the hip stays stable at the 45 degree angle ( belly button facing the foul line ) as the upper inside of the forearm substantially brushes it as the arm goes by. ( I believe Angela Tincher models this as well as anybody and I don't believe she's losing any power IMHO and with untinted glasses : ) This creates a consistent launching pad for power. spin and speed as the arm is whipped and catapulted thru the release with the primary swing point being the elbow on the hip as the ball is released from legs exploding off the rubber in to a sudden stop against a very stable stride leg with the follow thru knee and foot maintaining a 45 degree angle thru the follow-thru with balance on the stride foot. The main thing that destroys all this is the intuitive effort of forcing the pitching hand and arm forward to release the ball and when coaches tell kids to throw it harder this is what most pitchers try to do. Most of my students look effortless when they pitch correctly and most of them only have average speed: so well meaning coaches try to get them to try harder in all the wrong places.

Hillhouse said:

Knightsb ... the drag foot is probably not the problem for your DD and her hips getting in the way. Make sure her STRIDE foot is turned to a 45 degree angle or so. If her foot/toes are pointing STRAIGHT to the catcher, her body will be square to the catcher. It's only when the stride foot turns that the rest of the body follows. Our bodies have a natural tendency to point in the direction of our toes, so if she's got her toes straight toward homeplate, then she's probably got her shoulders square too, then she will likely whack her hips.

In A LOT of cases, the figure 4 pitcher never closes her hips in the pitch... which loses a great deal of power. Why wouldn't you close your hips? Imagine a baseball pitcher getting sideways (like they are supposed to and the way a softball pitcher should) then never closing. They just get sideways and stay sideways. That's a lot of power being lost... and very unnatural.

Bill

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So knee/laces like


versus

" I have never heard of an ankle ligament tear due to dragging a pivot foot'""


Hyperextended ankle injury? Ever heard of that one????