2 seam and 4 seam pitches

redhawkridge · Apr 18, 2009

I don't see a cause-and-effect relation in Bill H's explanation. He's probably right, but what exactly does more pressure via finger or grip on one side of the ball do? Make the the ball tilt one way or the other?
If it's just finger pressure, wouldn't that work for a tighter break with a 4 seam grip, with the theory of more air resistance of 4 seams pushing?
Jim

Mark H · Apr 18, 2009

I don't see this talked about much in fp but it's a big deal in baseball. Putting more pressure behind one side or the other of the ball changes the rotation axis slightly causing the ball to cut a little one way or the other without sacrificing speed appreciably. Don't need to make the hitter miss, just need to make them miss the middle of the ball. The smaller baseball might make this more effective.

Hillhouse · Apr 19, 2009

Redhawk

adding finger pressure to the index finger, for example, means the ball will leave that finger LAST as it leaves the hand. This puts a slight axis on the ball to make it "cut" inside for RH pitcher. I'm not a fan of doing ANYTHING that cuts across the middle of the plate so I generally only keep this inside. Mark is right, it's used a lot in baseball. However, in softball the pitcher's goal is to make the drop spin straight FORWARD, the rise to spin straight BACKWARD. Out of the hand, you don't want the hitter to know which way the ball is spinning. Throwing any pitch with 2 seams will allow the hitter to see the rotation much easier. And Redhawk is right again that 4 seams gives more wind resistance and that means more break.

Mark is also right, it's not about a swing and a miss. It's about miss hitting the ball. 21 outs is 21 outs, regardless of how you get them. Sometimes that gets lost in the stat world.

Bill

MiltonBC · Apr 26, 2009

All this talk about seams is making ME wanna throw up in my mouth!

It's not that the seams don't make a difference...they do...but only a very small difference compared to the *direction of the spin*.

Billy is right that a rise ball must spin backwards or close to it. However the "close to it" must consist of a tilt in the axis of the ball keeping it perpendicular to the target. If the axis tilts in the other dimension....giving it a slight or partial spiral spin.....then you lose movement big time.

Personally, I favour a 2 seam spin for myself because I get a better grip on the ball. I cannot notice any difference in movement....so the better grip outweighs the small fraction gained by having 4 seams.

Mind you.....I'm no Billy Hillhouse

Hurrlers Dad · Dec 14, 2010

Are there any other pitches that would work better with a four seam grip. I can say my DD has been throwing a 2 seam rise for about a year and she was introduced to the four seam last week and it is a completely different pitch (a real rise vs her risig fastball) I never knew you could throw a four seam drop but now we are going to work on that. Like I asked please let me know if there are any other four seam pitches, thanks

Dusty · Dec 18, 2010

A year ago at dd's winter workouts a pitcher for an older team in the same org showed dd the two seam grip and she's had a similar experience to others posted above. Usually, it breaks late and sharp to the outside and other times it seems to just break down like her drop, maybe not as much break but it seems later and sharper. Rarely does it cut inside but I have seen it do that on occasion. It's like it catches a rail where the two horseshoes come nearly together and takes a sharp turn.

I thought the break was attributable to finger pressure since I had seen Hillhouse describe it in his first video but to date we haven't had much manipulating it, it still pretty much does what it wants to do when it wants to do it. Any practical tips on how to manipulate the break of this pitch would be appreciated.

clayrobinson · Aug 16, 2014

In my opinion at that age she should work on perfecting a changup and dropball before she starts working with other grips especially ones moving side to side. A mens pitcher i used to work with that travelled around the world playing told me that pitches that move side to side only are useless when you start playing elite level because they don't change levels. Pitches that move side to side are great pitches to have if you make them go up or down as well. My best advice to you is throw every pitch using all four seams to spin and perfect a good up and down before trying to make the pitches move side to side

riseball · Aug 16, 2014

Hillhouse said:
Vdub

the ball moving left or right is soley because of finger pressure. Intentional or not, she is squeezing harder with one side of her hand (or finger), which makes the ball cut in that direction. This can be done with 4 seams, just as easy as 2 seams.

I've heard a pitching coach once say that a 2 seam riseball will move just as much as a 4 seam and I almost threw up in my mouth. This argument is made for the drop also and it's equally as crazy.

Keep in mind, with the way hitters are taught today, mediocre pitchers can get away with things and it makes them look like champions. However, when facing top of the line hitters, they are trying to do 1 of 2 things: Read the pitcher to know the pitch before its thrown. Or if they can't do that, they read the rotation of the pitch to know how it's going to move. In a perfect world, you want your rise to spin as close to backward as you can get. and Your drop to spin forward with 4 seams so out of the pitcher's hand the hitter will have a hard time detecting which direction the ball is spinning. Throwing with 2 seams provides a "looser" rotation and is easier to see for the hitters.

But still, the 2 seam side to side movement is strictly finger pressure. If she works on it consciencely, she will get it and control it and do it at will.

Bill

DD and I saw your videos and she embraced the 2 seam with awesome results. Throws it breaking in or out at 67-68mph. The 2 seam rocks! Last year she was #3 in NJCAA with 235 K's in 193 innings which was highest number for a Freshman. She has gotten the attention of SEC, ACC, and BIG10 teams and the 2 seam was a big part of the equation. As you have stated one of the best things about the 2 seam is that the motion is the same as her rise and peel drop. Thank you sir!

Added - Did not realize until after posting that this was revived via a total necropost. Oh well, new decade same story.

2 seam and 4 seam pitches

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