Thread: Hitting Questions?

I have Epstein's material, but I'm not one of these people who becomes a die hard fan of any one particular instructor. In fact I prefer that the person's ideas I'm using be challenged, because in the end I always learn something.

I stumbled onto Steve's site a couple of years ago. I recently registered so I could gain access to the open part of the boards on his site.

I guess I'm just dense, because when I read some of the stuff on his site as well as on this site, I hear pretty much the same stuff Epstein is saying.

Yes, they say it in a completely different way, but the end result of what the final swing looks like appears very similar to my eye.

When Steve talks about connection and hinge angle I hear Epstein say slot the back elbow and lead with the front elbow or stay in the envelope.

When Steve talks about tilting the body to match swing planes (I think he says this), I hear Epstein saying to weather vane and to make on the fly adjustments while still trying to maintain the envelope (hinge angle).

Epstein teaches having a flexed front knee during the toe touch phase of the swing. As far as I can tell so does Steve.

Epstein teaches to trigger the hips after toe touch or into heel plant. I'm not sure what Steve teaches here, but based on his video clip it sure looks similar.

I'm just wondering out loud if they are arguing over semantics in the interest of gaining market share?

Originally Posted by tom.guerry

For the killer B's:

B25, I have exchanged enough ideas with Nyman and Emglishbey to know the way they see the swing. The swing they describes is not at all like the MLB pattern resembling overhand throw as described (see linked examples) by Slaught/Candrea/Enquist.

Tom, I talk to SE once a week. I don't and can't speak for your conversations. How long ago did you talk with SE? I'm taking a shot that you haven't talked to him in 4 or 5 years. How close am I? 4 or 5 years ago, I was a conspiracy advocate in the JFK Assassination.

Completely different rhythm/sequence/flow of positions. Nothing in middle out Nyman swing is like live and independent hands.

Nothing is "middle out?" So you don't see tilt in the pelvic area. You don't see the hips as having great importance. You see the arms by passing the shoulders and telling the brain and body what to do? You see Hitters as being vertical in all phases of the swing. You discount that the serepe effect matters at all and so there is no relationship between opposite hips and shoulders?

Nyman has certain requirements of PCR which force it to be a non MLB pattern, especially how scaps function to turn arms bat in shoulder plane.

Again, BY NYMAN'S OWN DEFINITION PCR MUST BE OBSERVED/REFERENCED IN THE MLB SWING!

This is the MOST important feature determining whether the pattern is 1 (PCR) v 2 (MLB) as shown by Hardy in golf.

Tom, how many times do people have to cite that you purposely misrepresent this point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge
And meaningless, when you consider that Jim Hardy - the author of the golf book TG quotes - HIMSELF says that the ONE-PLANE golf swing is most representative of the MLB swing. TG of course corrects him, and asserts what he REALLY means, but that is what Hardy says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoardMember
And the fallacy continues.........

Jim Hardy and Peter J.:
Quote:
"The one plane swing is like a baseball swing."
Peter Jackobson:
Quote:
"I'm hitting the ball much farther with a 1 plane swing then I was with a 2 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"As you can see, the hips are almost square to impact with a 2 plane swing, vs. the hips really driving through and rotating toward the target much further on a 1 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"The 2 plane swing is like a ferris wheel where the hands and arms move up and down relative to the bodys rotation. The one planer tilts over a bit more and the arms and hands move around the body more like a baseball swing."



Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge
From The Plane Truth About Golf, by Jim Hardy:

(emphasis added)

"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is, at the top of the backswing, your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you, folded with the elbow pointing slightly behind you. Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball. you'll see that from this position, they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch.

"The torso is like an inner of centripetal force whose movement activates the bat, which receives the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly, the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball.

"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing. You don't throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."

This point was further made in a recent link:

Groove a One Plane Golf Swing Automatically


If PCR becomes any more general, it becomes meaningless.

So either you follow NYman and get the 1 plane gate swing OR you say PCR and it has no meaning.

BM-
Try to stay on subject. The guidelines here are to avoid ad hominem off topic exchanges. Link whatever you want. In addition to this discussion, here are some topic areas I would encourage for you regarding the MLB patern:

1- how does the candrea.Slaught.enquist pattern fit/not fit the pttern ?

2- how can the bat turn early in the hands withiut unhinging the lead wristr

3- how can you drop and tilt the way Epstein describes without reverse pivoting

4- why is looking at tilt fron the pitchers view a fairly useless way to assess adjustment

.................

Tom,

I just noticed your reference to me as a "killer B." LOL! No one I know puts much stock into what I say. However, I do speak from experience. My personal experience. I participate in these threads as a resource who's only agenda is to speak from that experience. I don't have to be right. After all, my dd's a pitcher as well. If all of the members listed to me and my hitting advice, she's in trouble.

B25 -

You are a killer B in terms of killing off some good discussions at hsbaseballweb with your biased moderating. You should consider giving that job up as should JAke at bbf. level of discussion has gone way down.

But anyway, this is way off point. What are the specifics you want addressed. The Nyman/Hardy stuff we have been over.

BM-

If you want to hear similarities between throw and swing start a thread. Studying this requires a throwing model.

What's yours ?

Tom, what is interesting is to see what you have talked about for years, - that is, teaching overhand throwing and hitting together, due to the similarity in sequences and synching of movements - is exactly what Candrea/Slaught/Enquist are talking about. Geez, how did you know that, Tom? I mean, with no real students and all... (sorry for the smoke screen reference...hard to resist.)

He DIDN'T know it. Just gravy-trained.

The material in question - RVP - is now more than 4 years old. When it was published, Tom was a happy MODERATOR at a SETPRO hitting site. Other than the occasional buffoonery of "arm action is king," there were NO SUCH comments authored by Tom in that time period.

He absolutely did NOT start talking about this until after he saw the RVP material. Period, didn't happen.


Slapper23, it sounds as if you work with hitters, so I'm inclined to at least listen to what you have to say. If you have worked with college level hitters, I'd be even more willing.

Guerry does not work with any hitters of any age, which makes his opinions just that.


THAT is content.



As for Lotieff, I know him, and have competed against him. I've never personally had the specific discussion, but I've overheard him discussing a number of hitting influences. His answer to a question about Englishbey was something like "Steve has a lot of the answers, though not all of the answers." It was NOT a disparaging comment. I have also heard him say that NO ONE instructor has ALL of the answers. And I dont think he panders to his audience, I think that is what he believes, so I would urge you to stop putting words in his mouth. Sounds as if you know him, and maybe he says something different to you. Or maybe you just INFER he says something different to you.

You are a killer B in terms of killing off some good discussions at hsbaseballweb with your biased moderating. You should consider giving that job up as should JAke at bbf. level of discussion has gone way down.

You've been banned from virtually every hitting site on the internet, and you're blaming MODERATORS? My God, are you for real?

Maybe you should be a softball dad. You know, the kind who thinks their daughter is the best player on the planet, if only the coaches would just see it.

Get a grip.

But anyway, this is way off point. What are the specifics you want addressed. The Nyman/Hardy stuff we have been over.

Indulge those of us who either don't think this happened or missed it.

You consistently quote a book authored by a golf guy. You state that he says that the 2-plane golf swing is most similar to the baseball swing. And yet the book - I haven't read it - APPARENTLY says that the ONE plane swing is most similar to baseball.

Either stop referencing the book, or change your conclusions. You CAN'T just misquote or mis-represent the author of a book. Do you REALLY expect that no one will challenge this stuff?

skeptic-

you are late to the party and have no experience with what happened in the distant past. You are just being taken advantage of/used by hearsay.

My descriptions have been largely the same since WAY before any Slaught info was out.

here is an post when we were all good buddies before Nyman went crazy and Steve and the posse followed him to the dark side:

Questions for Tom Guerry

Lots of older ones on setpro and batspeed.

Scott may remember we actually were given the Candrea rightview stuff to look over before it was released. He also remembers I was very gracious about leaving Nyman because I disagreed with his move away from the pattern that resembles overhand throw (upper and lower body and synch programs) and his misinterpretation of torque in his own simulations.

This later problem turns out to be a wilful misrepresentation on Nyman's part to try to discredit Mankin (which is why I continue to criticise Nyman the pseudoscientist heavily, that and the fact that he is screwing up baseball swings for many still, including the Stocks), but now Nyman has revised his interpretation to include "early torque" as key to a quick swing and good release. He still doesn't have it early enough, the torque is needed to create torso loading, not just kick before the torso unloads. he still has scap action wrong which forces the non-MLB single plane "gate swing". Follow that and it;s death to the MLB/baseball. But it's better than a disconnected arm swing for fastpitch.

skeptic said:

"And yet the book - I haven't read it - APPARENTLY says that the ONE plane swing is most similar to baseball."

Skeptic- try reading it and using your brain and trying it out before commenting.

you are being used.

you are late to the party and have no experience with what happened in the distant past. You are just being taken advantage of/used by hearsay.

I don't know who is taking advantage of me. I have received no PMs or correspondance of any kind at this site or elsewhere. I have remained anonymous for reasons which would be obvious if you knew who I was.

That said, I do read a lot of the online web boards, and am familiar with most of the personalities.

Some have come closer to my own beliefs than you. Others have been significantly more persuasive than you.

Your unwillingness to work with a single student speaks volumes to me. There is no excuse for that. None. How hard would it be to work with ONE kid, just to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about? It completely invalidates your credibility with me. If others feel differently, more power to them. I can't get past it, because I can't understand it.

Scott may remember we actually were given the Candrea rightview stuff to look over before it was released. He also remembers I was very gracious about leaving Nyman because I disagreed with his move away from the pattern that resembles overhand throw (upper and lower body and synch programs) and his misinterpretation of torque in his own simulations.

I do know who Scott is, and in fact, whether or not HE knows it, have seen a number of his hitters while scouting Club ball. And they weren't too bad. In fact, a couple were very good.

It is interesting that 5+ years ago, based on the thread you linked, you and he were in apparent agreement. Who changed? You or him?

I have no idea of the circumstances of your dismissal from Setpro. Many have described it as less than amicable. Not true? Doesn't matter. Nyman is insane. It is what it is. But doesn't change the fact that you were once a moderator there, and now slam him every chance you get. Sounds like an agenda to me.

skeptic said:

"And yet the book - I haven't read it - APPARENTLY says that the ONE plane swing is most similar to baseball."

Skeptic- try reading it and using your brain and trying it out before commenting.

you are being used

I read the quote below. Is it reproduced inaccurately?

Look, the guy defines 1-plane and 2-plane differently than you, and differently than you'd like him to. Deal with it, quit quoting him and representing him as supporting your position. It's not honest, and makes you look ridiculous.

From The Plane Truth About Golf, by Jim Hardy:

"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is, at the top of the backswing, your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you, folded with the elbow pointing slightly behind you. Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball. you'll see that from this position, they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch.

"The torso is like an inner of centripetal force whose movement activates the bat, which receives the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly, the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball.

"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing. You don't throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."

Look, I'm done carping at you. Not worth either of our time. But the bottom line is, until you actually work with a kid and teach him or her to hit, you are at BEST, a nice guy. Nothing wrong with that. But not a hitting coach.

glad you are done.

let's move on.

Any content related questions ?