Thread: Front Shoulder Flying Open

Originally Posted by TheMagicMove

Mike,



And, I'm not quite sure of the purpose of showing a clip of a ground out to shortstop. Which clearly shows her inability to get the rear hip up and through. Why? Because her tilted torso is in the way.

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So first she's an example because she raises up during her swing but then once I point out that she did that due to pitch location now she's just not very good? She missed the pitch because it was a late breaking drop. That is obvious. If she's not very good well, she WAS all american which of course you would know if you were involved or knew about fastpitch.

This one wasn't a ground out. Photo 12 of 16, Fastpitch

Originally Posted by TheMagicMove

I believe you are the one that offered her as an example. I didn't.

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You commented on it as an example of a hitter standing up. I pointed out and proved it was location dependent and you changed the subject. I think people realize what you are about by now and I expect I'll just link this thread whenever you start up Richard. Good night.

Yeah, let the ball come deep. Set the tee up deep and figure out how to drive the ball with the tee deep.

Mark,
I have re-read my response and I do not see any statement or mention of setting a “tee too far back” or “come deep”. In fact I felt my reference to tee location would indicate a contact point that allows the hitter to drive the ball based on its location. What part of my reply to Mike are you referencing and how did you get the meaning from it that the tee should be “Too Deep”?

Yeah that was a little cryptic. In my view this hitter is likely (a guess based on the still) pushing the hands out to a contact point out in front. She has to start early to do this and has doubtless been told to hit it out front. Bring the tee back in past the front foot or deeper and force her to learn how to let it come deep and still drive it. I may or may not have misunderstood your intention but mine is as above.

Originally Posted by TheMagicMove

In the Bonds clip below, first notice the bend in the knees that he starts with which requires a bend forward at the waist for balance. Then notice how he bends the knees more AS the torso raises out of the tilt. He is freeing his rear hip so it can come up and through. This can not be done with tilt and maintaining the tilt deep into the swing. Finally, notice how he launches the swing with a large push off the ground with the rear foot and with a large push of the rear hip joint against the femur. It is mostly a push upward....than forward....but there is a forward element to it. This rear hip action is extremely important. It must be 'free' to work.

Originally Posted by TheMagicMove

This clip of Pujols shows the sit very well.



Now, before you say...."yeah, but, I see him tilt over the plate after the sit"....make sure you understand what that move is. Again that is not tilt. Tilt is simply bend at the waist over the plate. The move you see is 'coil'. He coils into the rear hip. This loads the hip. The sit loads the leg. The coil loads the hip.

It may be me, but I don't see Pujols doing what you said Bonds and everyone else does.

Originally Posted by TheMagicMove

The thing to look for is the belt line. If there was true tilt and tilt maintenance throughout the swing, the belt line would not become horizontal or near horizontal. If you tilt, stick your butt out, and maintain that tilt around the corner, your belt line will remain tilted toward the plate. (the belt buckle lower than the middle loop in the back of your belt). You rarely see that in a good swing. Pitch location will do it to a hitter now and then. But that definitely is not what they want to do.

FREE THE REAR HIP.

Ummm...actually, if you tilt towards the plate, and then get your hips through, the belt would be tilted towards the plate, but the buckle should then be at the same level as the middle loop in back, right? Which is what I see in that clip, for what that's worth

Perhaps confusing in all of this "tilting" dialogue is that I know of no one that advocates tilting at the waist while maintaining straight legs. Of course the knees are bent. Also interesting in this thread is the statement that a softball swing was referenced and it therefore isn't a high level or MLB swing. ISN'T THIS A SOFTBALL SITE? That remark is one wherein Richard constantly points out that there are not any elite hitters, with the exception of Bustos, in softball. MarkH excellent video of the ULL hitter. I'd also point out that tilt has it's own adjustments. I'd point out that drills such as the "chair drill" are used to work with hitters adjusting up and down. BTW, also notice in the provided video that the claim that the hitters are verticle simply isn't valid. If one wants to go to extremes on the meaning of "tilt" then one must also go to extremes on verticle. What I see is that the MLB hitters video shows that they have tilt even after contact and that they are not straight up and down. Notice their shoulders are outside their back knee.

No, I said that you say Bonds and everyone else does it

Explain your reasoning on the belt, tilt, etc. please.

If a batter "tilts" prior to the pitch, then yes, his buckle is below the back loop, slightly. But, as a batter that does this swings, and their "belly button points at the pitcher" (to use an old cue), then that tilt naturally becomes a tilt to the side. His body is still tilted over the plate, but since his body has turned into the ball, the tilt is more sideways, which means his right side belt loop (for a rh hitter) is lower than his left side loop, but the buckle and back loop should be at about the same level, right?

It seems to me that tilt refers to the spine angle at address, which sets up the plane of the shoulders. As the swing takes place the hips level out but the shoulders remain tilted, this is obvious in all the videos that are posted. None of these players have 'level' shoulders. None of these videos show a player swinging at a low pitch, it would be interesting to see the plane of the shoulders on a low pitch. The plane of hips is naturally very close to level on all swings, if you try to swing with the hips 'tilted' it feels very awkward and out of balance, in fact I don't think that it can be done. I think that all players start with a shoulder plane which lets them hit a low pitch and adjust out of it on a high pitch, the bat/shoulder plane flattens out. Here is a picture of Pujols, his shoulders are very much tilted, his hips are level.

http://www.profantasybaseball.com/im...t-Pujols-6.jpg

Here is a series of Pujols swings some of which show considerable shoulder tilt, particularly on low pitches. One thing about Albert that I never noticed before is his atypical grip with the right hand. He has a 'flat palm' left hand but the right hand has the palm facing the line of the incoming pitch.

Pictures of Albert Pujols' Swing

And here is a slow motion breakdown of his swing that shows considerable tilting in the load stage and he stays tilted throughout contact. You can also get a good look at his hips flattening out as he comes into contact.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/...jolsSwing.html

Is a pretty good example of that if you look long and hard enough you can find anything out there that supports your position on hitting. Chipper Jones is the poster boy for standing tall in the box. Has been for years. Very little tilt in his swing. Still a very effective hitter.

A-rod to some degree too. Then you can go the other direction and say Bagwell just sits then at initiation comes up out of that sit and tilts to hit the ball. Pujols adjust to pitches probably better than most hitters so you never know what you will see with Al.

Hitting is about adjustments to the ball. Always has been and always will be. Often how you adjust is the key to a 200 BA and a 300 BA. Baseball or softball.

Elliott.