Mark H

This has been covered. What if feels like and what they really do are usually two different things. Feel is interesting but individual. Proprioceptive feedback is often at odds with reality. Each athlete has to learn through trial and error what efficient "feels like" to them. The purpose of instruction is to shorten that process. The purpose of immediate objective feedback is both to shorten that process and to make sure proprioceptive feedback isn't lying to them.

Example. Recently, in the last two or three years, Bonds really thought he swung down all the way through the ball. When Slaught showed him differently on video, it was a revelation. Did it matter to Bonds that what he felt when he swung well was in error? No. That was the only thing he DID need to know. The instructor however, DOES need to know what reality is.

Hit Dr.24

You need to know the process to get in those positions and if you cant feel it and do it yourself its awfully tough to relate it to an athlete.By the way I never said the golf swing was linear. Secondly at one point I read the words arrogant and ignorant pointed at me. I believe the work I've done with MLB players, Olympic players and the scientists from several top 25 universities gives me some type of quality experience.I understand some of you dont the opportunity to work with people at that level so all we are trying to do is get athletes to succeed. Dont try to judge when you have never been there.Try some of these things you might just like them.So stay tall throw the bat at the ball and let the body uncoil from the ground up.

Mark H

You missed my point about feel being an individual thing. Being able to demonstrate at a world class level IS very helpful but most/most elite performers historically make poor teachers. Especially for the less gifted student.

Sounds interesting. Where can we read about it? Even so, I'm going to compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.





OK, now I have to call whoa there coach. Elite hitters DO NOT "stay tall". As to throwing the bat at the ball, depends on how you want to "throw the bat at the ball". The kinetic chain works from the big parts out to the small parts. Not from the feet/small parts, to the big parts and then back to the small parts/arms and hands. Perhaps you could use the videos on the link I gave to back up your point?

Hit Dr.24

Mark H I have given you the full swing video of A-Rod and you always go back to short small clips of hitters. Look at the biomechanical movements of great hitters its not all short clips its the whole thing.The body stays tall keeping the eyes level until the hands and shoulders adjust to the plane of the pitch,thats whentilt happens.

ifubuildit

A-Rod while being a great hitter is just one of many templates you will see in MLB. The critical point here is what do you see at contact with the ball? I think with most elite hitters you see the same thing. Good rotation, combined with correct posture, and an understanding that the swing plane is the most critical aspect of the swing.

Any high level hitter will be coming into the ball on a slightly upward trajectory. Teddy boy himself even said that in his book and on his videos back in the 60's. I have no less than 20 pix on my garage wall of hitters at contact. Both male and female. They all LOOK the same. Including some of my students.

If you want to break down swings of MLB hitters thats fine but most of the things they do will not translate to teaching the average kid how to hit the crap out of a ball. They dont have the strength and stability to pull it off. It is for all intents and purposes a goal they can achieve but it will take them years of development to get there.

The road map is more important than the destination and I see way too many road maps out there with a lot of lost individuals on those roads. You can work with the best in the world but if you cannot translate that to an easy viable method to teach then its useless.

The moral of the story:

Don't get lost on the road. Use the right map.

Elliott.

Hit Dr.24

Great job Elliott! When proven techniques and players blue prints for success are thrown away as if they have no clue that bothers me.Its like someone watching a video of a dentist drilling a tooth then saying oh heck I can do that all I need is a drill. All I ask is have a process and get results. Several people who have done a heck of alot in the game of fastpitch are being told they know nothing about the game by people who could'nt play themselves,thats wrong.At least some people on this site have a resume and don't try to pass info like they do!Some people should listen to the athletes and actually find out what they do before trying to discredit those who do.Joe Crede Chicago White Sox:"When I get into a slump I go back to the basics ,keep my head still and throw my hands".Tony Gwynn "you'ld be suprised how hard you can hit the ball by throwing the knob of the bat at the ball".Ted Williams :"Tony Gwynn is the most knowledgable hitter I have ever met".I'm sorry I don't assume to know a computer programers job,so don't you insult me by trying to tell me something you have no experience at! Peace and out you have the answers and keep trying to trick em!

Mark H

I have zero problem with that pattern though we can have another discussion about what adjusts. Tall and moving down into a good vertically loaded posture is not the only way to get to a good hitting positition but it's one way that can certainly work very well. Glad we got that misunderstanding out of the way.

On adjustments, the tilt adjusts for the pitch height and the arms make the inside outside adjustments speaking of non fooled swings.

Mark H

What I saw happen was the comparing of anything anyone said about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.


Again, I can find elite performers and credentialed coaches to disagree or agree with just about any conflicting position you want to name in terms of hitting mechanics. If we are to take big resume experts at their word we are going to be constantly reversing course depending on who we last talked to. You have to have some method to decide which big resume expert is right since so many of them vehemently disagree with each other. So...I suggest...compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. Let that be your truth detector. If you find that offensive I can't imagine why. And certainly it would be the opposite of arrogant.


Again, it depends on what he means by "throw the hands". If he means this... http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html
then no, not so much. If he means like this...Photo 4 of 16, Fastpitch, then yeah, that's what I see happening in elite hitter's swings.


So you have lost patience with discussing hitting when I want to compare what we all say to slow motion video of elite hitters? I'm willing to subject anything I believe to this test. I suggest everyone should.

Hit Dr.24

First you have never taught a hitter of the elite level. Second your veiw of video is way off from reality because you have never hit.Third if you think you tilt your shoulders to the ball first and then try to adjust to the ball with your hands I know you're lost in your video.And last why are you afraid to look at a true motion analysis of elite hitters,don't you like the way they talk about the full transfer swing? Don't you like the way it shows the hand path to the ball is down? Don't you like the way the front arm pulls straight across the body moving at the same time as the back leg and hip firing.Yes I believe I have put in 25 years playing and working with the best in the world and that gives me the practical and scientific advantage over someone who says he will challenge me. If you really could you would have because you can only give your own horsepucky!

Mark H

Neither has the average dad who has to decide who to believe among those who HAVE taught elite hitters and who teach wildly conflicting things. So that won't fly. Again, you say blue, expert with credentials says green, next one says red. Two of you are full of it. Which one? Only way I know to sort it out is compare what the experts say to slow motion video of the best in the world.


So I don't see what I see? What about my buddy who made AAA? I see the same thing he sees and he certainly hit. What about Epstein, Slaught and Gwynn? They all hit and they see very different things from each other. What now?

I don't think you followed me but if you want to discuss it till we know where we really agree and really disagree that's fine.

What are you talking about?

Well early on in the swing, sure it's down. That's really not a very salient or helpful point IMO, but who said the initial movement of the hands was not down? Tilt over and turn and then sure, the rotation of the shoulders will initially take the hands downward.


Perhaps you could elaborate here. "pulls straight across the body" could mean several things. Back leg and hip firing? Well that could mean any number of movement patterns. Not descriptive enough. Perhaps you could pick a particular video off Siggy's site to illustrate.

What I do with you is the same as I do with anyone. I'm going to compare what you say about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world and let that be my truth detector.

That last sentence doesn't really seem helpful but apparently you don't care to be questioned about your beliefs nor have them compared to slow motion video of the best in the world. Again, I've seen people with much bigger resumes than yours who say differently than you say and I've seen people with the same sort of resume who disagree with both of you. So how should I then decide if you are the one or if the next person with a great resume is the one to listen to?

In general, I find those who don't like to be questioned are those least prepared to answer. You may be the best instructor in the world. That ought to make it pretty easy to calmly point out in video of elite hitters where you are right and I am wrong. Which would be a great day because it would mean I had learned something. Injecting emotion into the discussion doesn't help anyone.