Thread: Hitting Questions?

BM-

Your teams can be better if the outfield, short stop and evn 3rd base have a good overhand pitch/throw (mechanics are same). Even at the Olympic level they try to hide bad arms, especially in right field where for example throwing out some runners at the plate could help. lots of room for improvement.

Details are EXTREMELY important, but tricky becasue they have to be the RIGHT details. But the post incuded the cliff (not clif) notes:

So:

Get sideways

1- break the hands symmetrically with elbows up and palms down

2- lift and pinch

3- when the throwing thigh turns over,the throwing hand comes up.Stretch the body as much as possible as this happens by keeping the lead arm internally rotated and arching the back.

4-Keep the head back and get the throwing elbow flexed at 90 degrees as the torso starts to turn which then lays back the thrrowing arm more.

5- Land on a firmly flexed front leg with the toe pointed to the target.Throw to target with full pronation of arm and pure underspin.


That should be short enough.

Youhave to understand arm and scap action.

Lead arm INtenal rotation is especially important to prevent flying open.

Back arm synch with body is especially important for timing/loading.

All are extremely important for a consistent release.

It's a huge area of opportunity for fastpitch not only for better defense but better hitting as the loading pattern and synch carryover.

I will address your questions (torque,etc) specifically when I get time over the weekend.

Thanks again for the relative comity.

Reasonable enough.......And short enough.

A little more study on your part is appropriate regarding scap action for position throwing for example.

I'm not sure you understand the function of the lead shoulder during the loading phase. As we've discussed before regarding hitting, scap action is reciprocal, not simaltaneous........

During the loading phase, the front scap extends, as the rear scap pinches. During the unloading phase, the front scap pinches as the rear scap extends/unloads..........This action is critical to efficient/powerfull torso rotation.

If you ever attempted to teach my fielders to pinch both scaps during the load and put "pure" backspin on the ball, I'd throw you off the field (so to speak)...........

To understand the differences, you should start by studying the mechanical differences of someone who, under no time constraints, and standing on an elevated mound with a vertical drop, can cause severe internal/external rotation the rear thigh in the rear hip socket to assist in torque/torsion, pinch both scaps and still avoid "fly open" of the front shoulder.

As compared to someone who must generate torque/torsion while on level ground, and moving toward a target during the loading phase, where severe internal rotation of the rear thigh in the hip socket cannot occur during the loading phase, and pinching the front scap simaltaneously will cause "fly open" during the unload........

They are two very different animals...........Using two different mechanisms to generate the most torque available for a given movement.........

If you'd like to discuss the differences, lets continue.......First, go find some clips of an infielder making a play and study the front shoulder action.........Where/how the break occurs, and the reason for a non-symetrical move.......And whether he/she is "trying" to put pure backspin on the ball..........

This would be very evident to you IF you were ever actually on a field with a fielder, who is attempting to make a powerful, YET ACCURATE throw while "ON THE MOVE".........

Originally Posted by tom.guerry

BM-

Your teams can be better if the outfield, short stop and evn 3rd base have a good overhand pitch/throw (mechanics are same). Even at the Olympic level they try to hide bad arms, especially in right field where for example throwing out some runners at the plate could help. lots of room for improvement.

Details are EXTREMELY important, but tricky becasue they have to be the RIGHT details. But the post incuded the cliff (not clif) notes:

So:

Get sideways

1- break the hands symmetrically with elbows up and palms down

2- lift and pinch

3- when the throwing thigh turns over,the throwing hand comes up.Stretch the body as much as possible as this happens by keeping the lead arm internally rotated and arching the back.

4-Keep the head back and get the throwing elbow flexed at 90 degrees as the torso starts to turn which then lays back the thrrowing arm more.

5- Land on a firmly flexed front leg with the toe pointed to the target.Throw to target with full pronation of arm and pure underspin.


That should be short enough.

Youhave to understand arm and scap action.

Lead arm INtenal rotation is especially important to prevent flying open.

Back arm synch with body is especially important for timing/loading.

All are extremely important for a consistent release.

It's a huge area of opportunity for fastpitch not only for better defense but better hitting as the loading pattern and synch carryover.

I will address your questions (torque,etc) specifically when I get time over the weekend.

Thanks again for the relative comity.

using Nyman model for throw, spine action is described as bow-arch-bow.

Applying this to MLB swing, spine action is just bow-arch.

In throwing the back scap UNpinches/UN loads to transition from arch to final bow. finishing the laying back of the throwing arm/loop which then reverese and accelerates the trhwoing hand primarily by INternal rotation.

In The MLB pattern of swinging, the back scap stays pinched, it does not unload before contact, but remains stable to support back arm action as well as front scap pinching if that is necessary.

the PCR/Nyman/Englishbey swing pattern is totally different becasue it involves swinging the scaps around the torss in cluding unpinching the back scap well before contact.

So when you think of the different scap action in the overhand throw and MLB swing, this helps understand how the preparation/loading is VERY similar up to a point, with the actual UNloading being different to fit with the bow-acrh bow of the throw as opposed to the bow-arch of the swing.

In The MLB pattern of swinging, the back scap stays pinched, it does not unload before contact, but remains stable to support back arm action as well as front scap pinching if that is necessary.

I am calling you on that one. How in the world can your back scap stay pinched and still make a move to the ball? The very thing you make fun of (a one piece, spin swing) is exactly what would happen if your back scap stayed pinched.



BM, I like your description and understanding that a throw from SS is different then throwing from a mound.

Have you used or seen Kabota's stuff?

I am calling you on that one. How in the world can your back scap stay pinched and still make a move to the ball? The very thing you make fun of (a one piece, spin swing) is exactly what would happen if your back scap stayed pinched.

You are way off the mark with those comments. In the PCR/Nyman/Englishbey swing, the back scap would unload/unpinch well before contact. Totally different arm action involved here, and the back scap remaining pinched is very much related to the role of the top hand/arm in the swing - which differs by 180 degrees from the PCR blueprint. Study clips of the top guys in ML and you will the arm action is as Tom describes. A revealing difference between lead arm vs. top hand emphasis.

Mike

Originally Posted by Slapper23

You are way off the mark with those comments. In the PCR/Nyman/Englishbey swing, the back scap would unload/unpinch well before contact. Totally different arm action involved here, and the back scap remaining pinched is very much related to the role of the top hand/arm in the swing - which differs by 180 degrees from the PCR blueprint. Study clips of the top guys in ML and you will the arm action is as Tom describes. A revealing difference between lead arm vs. top hand emphasis.

Mike

You have me totally confused. If I load the rear scap (pinch) and try to swing while keeping it pinched how do you get the bat around? Rotating the torso?

Are you saying the scap will depress? I agree with that, but the scap will unpinch, meaning slide around the rib cage. When you say "stay pinched" it sounds like you are saying staying fixed.

That's right MTS, back scap clamps down to connect and does not slide around rib cage until after contact.

Torso uncooiling (not shoulder/"scap" rotation, shoulders are "bypassed" as generators of rotation) is what drives the swing.

The scaps are used to assist in turning the bat between the hands early.

This creates resistance which keeps the hands back and controls stretch and fire of the torso while at the same time giving the bathead a running start (without any premature unhinging of lead wrist) so inertia does not force drag.

This is how you get "early" batspeed and match the plane to the pitch as Williams decribed, the unloading of a well coiled torso producing what he described as the power/push/axe swing/slight up swing with top hand wrist unbroken at contact.

WAYYYYYYYYYYY different from a PCR use scaps to turn arms and bat around body as body turns/swing like heck/five frame swing/etc.

Totally different feel and pattern as described by candrea and enquist for example. The MLB swing gets you prepared early/slowly when you swing like you throw.

Entirely unlike the turn like heck PCR swing.

Features of one pattern should usually not be mixed with the other.

The moment the rear elbow drops the rear scap is unloading. Like I said, the rear scap is depressing, it is not staying pinched in a fixed place.

The scap depressing is still a move around the rib cage. Muscles are acting upon the scapula and displacing it.

I was about to call bs on Tom also...but before I did I thought I would check with my wife who is a physical therapist and knows all about muscles and how they work.

While in my batting stance I had her place her hand on my back scap and then tell me what the back scap was doing when I loaded and unloaded.

Here's what happened. As I loaded the back scap compressed. When I slotted my elbow the back scap continued to stay relatively compressed. It stayed relatively compressed all the way around to where contact would normally be.

I never would have believed it, had I not tried it. I thought for sure that the back scap would totally decompress when the back elbow was slotted. My wife estimates that my back scap remained about 70% compressed right up until contact.

You can do it either way, BUT pattern will be different. Early batspeed and MLB are impossible if you swing the scap around the torso before contact.

In addition to taking hacks either way. I like to look at the gold literature and see where parallels are found.

The best thing rleated here is the "hitting" method/variant of Homer Kelley's The Golf Machine, see lynnblakegolf.com for best accessible info.

In the hitting variant of the golf swing, the body action is described as a "hand-controlled pivot". The back shoulder is loaded into the swing plane and hip turn turns the shoulder down the plane a little where it acts as a platform so when the back arm extends at the elbow you don't "run out of right arm". The shoulder is not unloaded until after contact/release.

This is one of several crucial mistakes Nyman makes in claiming that PCR de3scribes the MLB pattern. First he abandoned the upper/lower/synch motor program concept which works best for comparing swing to throw, then he got the scap action right in throwing, but wrong in swinging (including how shoulders tilt/bypass, not turn), he missed the importance of back arm action sequence in synching upper/lower body and with respect to arm extension/release, he encourages external rotation of the lead arm through contact to roll the lead wrist which is the chickenwinging flaw that forces premature disconnection and deceleration.

Otherwise, the general principles and approaches of the ebook are pretty reasonable and his throwing info is good.