Thread: Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2

Board Member,

Then how come my big league hitting coach, Rod Carew would tell me to load my hands with my legs bc when I would push my hands backwards, I would bar out my front arm?

B25 asked about the PCRW "footprint".

Actually, Nyman/setpro calls it a "blueprint".

What it is a blueprint for, is, by definition a single plane pattern swing where the shoulders turn the arms/bat in the shoulder plane.

There are 2 primary and very different high level swing patterns determined by how the body/limb connection is made as demonstrated by Hardy in golf.

In the 1 plane swing, you swing the club back and forth in the shoulder plane as the body turns.

In the 2 plane swing, you swing the club up and down in front of the body as the body turns.

2 VERY different ways of "connecting". Two very different arm actions/sequences.

PRoducing two very different ways of "rotating".

Supported by very different postures/sequences of body positions.

A great example of how this works in golf is in how to analyze the flaw where the club gets "trapped" or "stuck".

If you are not aware of the different patterns, you will unwittingly force a total pattern change rather than fix the problem within a given pattern since the problem has a different causation depending on the basic pattern the golfer uses.

Boardmember mentions the "trapping" problem in hitting, for example, here:

what happens when you counter rotate shoulders too much?? - Baseball Fever

In golf, you fix the "stuck"/"trapped" problem in the 2 plane swing by keeping the arms in front of the body.

In the one plane swing, the club gets stuck when the handpath extends. The cure is to keep the hands swinging on the "inner circle".

As HArdy points out, if a golfer gets instruction that conflicts with the pattern they use, it can ruin them:

Testimonials

"If you look at guys like Seve Ballesteros, Ian Baker-Finch, Chip Beck and David Duval - they have been taught right out of their business. They have lost their game. Duval was the No. 1 player in the world, and he didn't just fall out of bed one day and forget how to play. What happened is he has mixed two-plane issues with a one-plane swing."

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Without understanding the patterns and how they differ you get the one size fits all fix which is usually keeping the arms in front and unwittingly forcing the player into the 2 plane pattern. This kills one planers (like Duval for example - once shot a 59, not so much now) as aHardy explains when asked if he had seen 2 plane fixes applied to 1 plane swings:

"Yes I do, since it is what eventually got me back into teaching and then the book. David, plus others were teaching the one-plane swing and got the arms and club stuck behind them in the downswing (as I did also until I figured out how not get it stuck). This was happening not only in their student's games but in their own as well. The solution they settled on was to get the arms more out in front of them and when this created problems, they then touted slowing down the body. With out knowing it they had started to "morph" into a two-plane swing (arms in front and timed with the body turn). The real tragedy is that the golfing world bought into it. The arms and club stuck behind you became the curse of the day. As I point out in my book, it is caused by thrusting the arms out in front of you (particularly the right elbow)on the downswing. The farther you thrust the arms out in front the farther the club opens and lays off behind you (stuck). The opposite is what you want. On the downswing, the tighter and lower on your chest the left arm is while the right elbow remains up and behind you the more the club closes and comes out in front. ARMS BACK/CLUB OUT....ARMS OUT/CLUB BACK. That's how they work, so to put the arms farther out in front and still try to swing around the torso was exactly the wrong direction to head in. So when, arms out in front and slow down the body still did not cure the one-planer, David droped the last vestige of the one-plane swing (club around the torso) and incorporated an early wrist set that broke the club up more vertically and not so much around the body. The final result was to leave the arms in front, the body turning in time with the arms and to get an early wrist set that would work the club more upright and not so much around the body....result, a complete transformation to a two-plane swing. I do not mean to criticize David for his work. I have nothing but a world of respect for him What he has done has been through great dedication and effort to help people play better golf. He saw problems with the one-plane swing and set about to fix them. It is just my opinion that in his quest to fix the problems, he did in fact fix the one-plane problems but at the same time moved away from a one-plane swing concept alla Hogan, Snead and Knudsen to the two-plane swing concept."

JH


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These golf apporaches apply well to hitting. Pick your options carefully.

hitdr-

One good thing about the carew cue is it emphasizes how the hands/arms and feet/legs work together/synch which is very important in timing twist/load between upper and lower body in the MLB type swing.

Same way upper and lower body synch in the windup for overhand throw.

Boardmember -

Great to hear the pole cue. Similar to the lead arm action in preparing the overhand throw.

Then they can learn to snap the pole as a different way of actually throwing in hitting vs overhand throw.

Originally Posted by Hit Dr.24

Board Member,

Then how come my big league hitting coach, Rod Carew would tell me to load my hands with my legs bc when I would push my hands backwards, I would bar out my front arm?

Lets be careful to understand the top side load isn't "all about the hands"

If he told you to load your hands during the negetive move I would say that you should find another coach...

The amount of top side loading is individual of course, which is why I said earlier, you can't put a label on a good swing. Arm bar is entirely different topic. It isn't created because of a hitter gaining "lead arm extension" into plant.

Watch the patch on the right sleeve of Cabrera and what the top side does with the hand into plant..........

"If he told you to load your hands during the negetive move I would say that you should find another coach..."

Board Member,

So now you have dissed Mike Candrea and Rod Carew?? Do you even know who they are? If I had an option to listen to Rod Carew (Hall of Famer) and Mike Candrea (US Olympic coach) or you... I think I would choose them.

I agree hit dr. If I were to build a business and had the option to take advice from either Bill Gates or a carpenter, I think I would choose Gates. Although the carpenter may study alot about "how to build a business," Bill Gates has actually done it and been successful. My opinion.

Originally Posted by Hit Dr.24

"If he told you to load your hands during the negetive move I would say that you should find another coach..."

Board Member,

So now you have dissed Mike Candrea and Rod Carew?? Do you even know who they are? If I had an option to listen to Rod Carew (Hall of Famer) and Mike Candrea (US Olympic coach) or you... I think I would choose them.

I guess you missed the point. What I said was IF he told you to "load your hands during the negetive move" I'd find another coach...........

I'm assuming you're asserting that this what he says and means........I'm sorry, I don't believe that's what he says. And if it is, I would venture to say he's not talking about what we're talking about........

Posey said earlier in the thread: "You cannot create separation during the stride". I said you were wrong and showed you how/why..........Now your pissy about it.....

MountieSB showed me a clip that Coach Mike shows exactly what I've been saying to you, which you said was wrong........I said I appreciated that, and "quoted" Mike saying just the opposite which is where I disagreed with him.

You either agree with Mike and I, or you don't......But I'm a jerk for bringing it to your attention in the first place...........I get it.......

Doc said: "Hey BoardMember, how come when I put the cursor on the hands they don't move". I explained it nicely to you, and now your pissy about it....

I already said I'm not interested in arguing.

Since you both insist on turning a simple discussion about hitting mechanics into a whine fest, I'll just back off and let it alone.

My only point in entering this discussion was to show how:

A.) Separation IS created during the positive move.
B.) The best hitters DO NOT load the top side during the negetive move.

Posey, your attitude showed up instantly when you said to B25: "how many teams have you coached to the world series and olympics"...........So I was prepared for this outcome........

I guess we should wait for Mr. Carew and Mr. Candrea to join this board before any further discussion can exist about hitting..........

Think about it............

TTYL.......

You know the real bottom line?

What a complete waist of my time........

Instead of contributing with supporting information, analysis and theory about why or why not you agree with a topic, this is what you get from you two.......:

Na-ah.......It does not. Candrea knows more then you......You think you're better then Carew?............

I'll remember not to bother the next time someone makes a statement that is obviously wrong or needs more study or correction and/or education about the sequence..........

..............

Originally Posted by BoardMember

I guess you missed the point. What I said was IF he told you to "load your hands during the negetive move" I'd find another coach...........

I'm assuming you're asserting that this what he says and means........I'm sorry, I don't believe that's what he says. And if it is, I would venture to say he's not talking about what we're talking about........

Posey said earlier in the thread: "You cannot create separation during the stride". I said you were wrong and showed you how/why..........Now your pissy about it.....

MountieSB showed me a clip that Coach Mike shows exactly what I've been saying to you, which you said was wrong........I said I appreciated that, and "quoted" Mike saying just the opposite which is where I disagreed with him.

You either agree with Mike and I, or you don't......But I'm a jerk for bringing it to your attention in the first place...........I get it.......

Doc said: "Hey BoardMember, how come when I put the cursor on the hands they don't move". I explained it nicely to you, and now your pissy about it....

I already said I'm not interested in arguing.

Since you both insist on turning a simple discussion about hitting mechanics into a whine fest, I'll just back off and let it alone.

My only point in entering this discussion was to show how:

A.) Separation IS created during the positive move.
B.) The best hitters DO NOT load the top side during the negetive move.

Posey, your attitude showed up instantly when you said to B25: "how many teams have you coached to the world series and olympics"...........So I was prepared for this outcome........

I guess we should wait for Mr. Carew and Mr. Candrea to join this board before any further discussion can exist about hitting..........

Think about it............

TTYL.......

You know the real bottom line?

What a complete waist of my time........

Instead of contributing with supporting information, analysis and theory about why or why not you agree with a topic, this is what you get from you two.......:

Na-ah.......It does not. Candrea knows more then you......You think you're better then Carew?............

I'll remember not to bother the next time someone makes a statement that is obviously wrong or needs more study or correction and/or education about the sequence..........

Thx but no thx Marc..........

..............

Originally Posted by BoardMember

I guess you missed the point. What I said was IF he told you to "load your hands during the negetive move" I'd find another coach...........

I'm assuming you're asserting that this what he says and means........I'm sorry, I don't believe that's what he says. And if it is, I would venture to say he's not talking about what we're talking about........

Posey said earlier in the thread: "You cannot create separation during the stride". I said you were wrong and showed you how/why..........Now your pissy about it.....

MountieSB showed me a clip that Coach Mike shows exactly what I've been saying to you, which you said was wrong........I said I appreciated that, and "quoted" Mike saying just the opposite which is where I disagreed with him.

You either agree with Mike and I, or you don't......But I'm a jerk for bringing it to your attention in the first place...........I get it.......

Doc said: "Hey BoardMember, how come when I put the cursor on the hands they don't move". I explained it nicely to you, and now your pissy about it....

I already said I'm not interested in arguing.

Since you both insist on turning a simple discussion about hitting mechanics into a whine fest, I'll just back off and let it alone.

My only point in entering this discussion was to show how:

A.) Separation IS created during the positive move.
B.) The best hitters DO NOT load the top side during the negetive move.

Posey, your attitude showed up instantly when you said to B25: "how many teams have you coached to the world series and olympics"...........So I was prepared for this outcome........

I guess we should wait for Mr. Carew and Mr. Candrea to join this board before any further discussion can exist about hitting..........

Think about it............

TTYL.......