Bow Squat or IR the rear hip only???

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tjintx

A real searcher
May 27, 2012
795
18
TEXAS
I've been deciphering everyone's words in trying to find the strongest, fastest, most stable way to use my lower body. The IR VS. the bow squat (core control) debate is raging and trying to explain it to a student is nearly impossible without getting technical. So I am bringing a few thoughts and questions in that have helped me recently in understanding the bow squat, core control(flail, I think I got it Blue).
For me IR of the rear leg needs to be resisted by the front leg equally. for those of you that use the connector tool you know it's purpose is to help teach a feeling of keeping the elbows equidistance from each other well into the launch of the swing.
Elbow Trainer.jpg
It is the same with the legs, perhaps not early in the setup as style always enters into the equation, stride etc. But when it matters, when it's time to fire the hips and hands the resistance between the legs will be HUGE in the bow squat(flail, Howe I think you and Blue are in the same ballpark just using different words) but not as huge in the IR setup that doesn't have resistance in the front side.
Here's a movement post from LClifton got me tinkering.....

Just a request, a movement I would like anyone here to try.

Place your hands behind your head interlocking your fingers.
Your lead elbow will be pointed toward the field of play and your rear elbow will be pointed toward the backstop.
Simply,,,slowly,,,, move your hips toward the field of play-- while keeping your shoulders facing the plate / or said another way---keep the sternum facing the position it started.

What do you feel?
What does your lead arm / rear arm "do"?
What kind of feel do you have in your hands?
How about the rear shoulder area?

Do your best to describe it. :D
 

Howe

Blowhard in training
Aug 28, 2013
1,922
0
You mentioned a couple of really good guys in that post. Both have contributed a lot to these forums, and they always make you think... Their teachings are not always in-line with the majority (on these boards), but that doesn't mean they are not right. If more folks would do what you just did, the community would grow and accelerate at a much quicker rate. Trust but verify, instead of blindly following.

I like this:
But when it matters, when it's time to fire the hips and hands the resistance between the legs will be HUGE in the bow squat(flail, Howe I think you and Blue are in the same ballpark just using different words) but not as huge in the IR setup that doesn't have resistance in the front side.
A lot of thought and studying went into understanding this.

 
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tjintx

A real searcher
May 27, 2012
795
18
TEXAS
I'll continue as last night when posting this thread the website crashed for a while so it is incomplete.

The first response to LClifton's came from Tewks who simply said.


posterior-view-latissimus_3d508004_127665330.jpg

It was the first thing I felt also, the most obvious result from a resistant upper body to a rotating lower body.

To get a stretch in the LATS you can do this movement drill pretty much anyway you want with your legs and pelvis as along as you resist turning with the upper or keep your sternum facing home plate. So I would expect anyone trying this movement to feel that no matter what. If you don't feel the LATS you need to stand in front of a mirror and make sure you are rotating not sliding your hips while resisting with the upper body.



Then I read this post from Powertoallfields.....

I feel the rear lat and glute the most being stretched. You can feel the stretch all the way to the front of the rear side of the Pelvis and into the groin and front of the thigh. The rear shoulder wants to go down, front shoulder wants to turn in and down to resist the turn. Front glute tightens as well, along with front groin and thigh.

This is what I teach and what I feel when I swing. The only thing different is the connection to the hands (by way of pulling with the bottom three fingers of the top hand) and turning the barrel rearward with the fingers of the top hand. Lateral Pelvic tilt helps keep the load around the corner. Drive the rear hip through the ball and the direction of the hit (resisting with the fingers of the top hand as long as possible while turning the barrel to the ball).

To feel what PTAF felt you need to do something more than just rotate and resist.
You need to engage the core..
You need to have BOTH legs engaged from the ground to the glutes resisting each other.

This is when I realized(I think), what BLUE meant with his reference to bull riding.


So here's an addition to the movement drill to try and feel the difference between
IR of the rear hip/leg
Bow Squat usage of BOTH legs.

First IR:
Stand with you feet apart, shoulder width at least, a little wider than the shoulders is better IMO. Using IR of the rear hip and leg OR inward pressure of the rear leg only try to do LClifton's drill. Rotate the hips, and resist with the upper.
You should feel the rear LAT tighten as it resists rotation. What is happening is the rear hip is trying to pull the rear shoulder down. Don't let that rear shoulder drop and you may want to make it rise a little at this point to feel more of a stretch. You should feel pressure in the rear glute and groin area also as you hips rotate but you won't feel it in the front leg.

Now try it another way:
Same set up but this time squeeze your legs together tightly without actually letting them come together. In other words imagine a connector tube or some other object is lodged between your legs. You should feel a lot of pressure under BOTH feet on the inside of the feet near the balls of your feet running up BOTH legs and into BOTH glutes. Understand that the distance between your legs WILL change the more you rotate your hips but you should be resisting that. While maintaining that pressure again do LClifton's drill.
It will be harder to do as you need to focus on keeping the legs engaged. You will really feel your core muscles working.
When you do it this way you will feel the LATS of course and then you will feel glutes, legs, core(no particular order) and maybe more.. The pressure under your feet will change from the inside of both feet TO the inside of the rear foot(mostly near the big toe) and the pressure under the front foot will move to the center or outside.
Good Luck.... TJ
BustosOverlap.gif
 
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Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
Alabama Drill:

Let's review a drill that helps give the feel of what I believe was being discussed in the prior thread in terms of bow/squat.

At a hitting facility I frequent there is a hitting drill referred to as the “Alabama Drill”. The drill was passed along during a conversation with Pat Murphy from Alabama … and hence the name of the drill.

Setup is as shown below …… Rear foot is elevated on an incline/ramp ….. Front foot is elevated on a simple platform.

2zs72fc.jpg



'Stride' forward.

715ulw.jpg



As your COM is brought forward you will need to deal with the change in height due the front foot moving beyond the platform that the front foot was on. As you perform the drill there should be a feel of flexion taking place in the rear hip … what I believe is being referred to as a ‘squat’ … it will have a “weight back” feel as the COM is moved forward. The flexion taking place in the rear hip will give a feel of the rear leg being stacked ... again, a feel of the weight remaining 'back'. For some it is a feel of being ‘rear legged’, yet there is a sense of balance that many here have attempted to describe in verbiage that doesn’t seem to be quite connecting with the masses.

Perform the drill …. See if you feel what is taking place in the rear hip.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
try this walkup drill:

http://www.stealth.hittingillustrated.com/ministep.gif

Stepping behind starts the pullbacks going up the back to the scap, rear hip remains bottom of top. rear upper leg will reactively IR. do not worry about front side.

balance on either side of the rear hip socket to get the back leg bar feel:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/rndhad/Non gif Videos/th_ChippersSeparation.mp4

swing down

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/rndhad/Non gif Videos/th_ChipperSwingPlane.mp4
 

Howe

Blowhard in training
Aug 28, 2013
1,922
0
try this walkup drill:

http://www.stealth.hittingillustrated.com/ministep.gif

Stepping behind starts the pullbacks going up the back to the scap, rear hip remains bottom of top. rear upper leg will reactively IR. do not worry about front side.

balance on either side of the rear hip socket to get the back leg bar feel:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/rndhad/Non gif Videos/th_ChippersSeparation.mp4

swing down

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u31/rndhad/Non gif Videos/th_ChipperSwingPlane.mp4

Tom, the Mini Walk-up or Chipper examples don't add up to this touted swing. Please explain.

HappyGilmoreGirl_zpsea791d34.gif
 
Dec 19, 2012
1,428
0
The swings are much different FFS. The head, shoulders, torso, hands, COM, front leg, back leg, etc......
 

redhotcoach

Out on good behavior
May 8, 2009
4,706
38
The swings are much different FFS. The head, shoulders, torso, hands, COM, front leg, back leg, etc......

So 7 parts different. Please elaborate the difference on each. Ya know, to help the kids.

I will help you get started: 1 is a top 25 hitter of all time, having hit for almost 30 years. The other is a 9 year old girl having hit for about a year.

So only 6 differences for the expert to give.
 
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