Thread: right elbow up or against body (rhb)

Originally Posted by Fastpitch Trainer

Dana, great points!

MarkH:

I would say that many of the people on the board are going to say that's an '"elbow down" for Vlad (i agree it is) and say this is what they want their girls to do.

Setting aside the rest of your answer which deserves it's own thread, would one say that if a hitter gets to this, or some other equally efficient and effective position at the same time Vlad does, does it really matter what the elbow does before that as long as it doesn't negatively affect their ability to get to this position at the same time Vlad does?

Originally Posted by ifubuildit

Is that a full clip of his swing?

I think Siggy made this clip to illustrate scap loading.

I believe the elbow should be down but not against the body--more like about 40-45˚--not 90˚.

I read somewhere that the extreme elbow up position was a technique that baseball used to make the lead shoulder stay down.

The problem I see with a high elbow is the momentum that is created when the elbow moves down into the slot; this has a tendency to make the bat head drop and it definitely takes more time to get there.

Someone mentioned the lack of forearm strength of girls. That is not necessarily true. Even if it was they use compatibly lighter bats. That reminds me of the shortened swings of yesteryear because "girls couldn't swing fast enough".

The first thing that happens when a swing is begun is the back elbow must drop, so why raise it to start with?

Physics. Once a body is in motion it is easier to keep it moving than to start from a dead stop. Does Kevin Youklis's or Gary Sheffield's pre-swing bat theatrics slow down the swing? My belief is that Contact is the direct result of timing more than batspeed (batspeed relating more to power). That skill or ability is developed by the batter and adjusted/fine tuned from pitch to pitch to compensate for variation in pitch speed. If a slapper can pull back on a pitch that they've already committed to, how much impact is raising or lowering the rear elbow going to make on getting around on a ball in time to hit it?

Interesting point about Vlad's swing- I would call that elbow up. The "elbows down" start that I have seen advocated involves both elbows down so that a bat resting in the crook of the elbows remains parallel to the ground throughout the swing. To me this is binding the upper arms tight to the body from start thru contact.

If a player is hitting well I don't ask them to change a thing. If they are struggling, I suggest tweaks to their swing and see what works. Often I find that starting with the rear elbow away from the body enables the swing to change from a weak, girlie swing to a powerful, ballplayer swing.

I'm not saying a "girlie swing" is a typical girl swing, it's more the result of weakness and unfamiliarity with the goal. I am using the term with you adults, hoping that you understand the problem by the crude description. I do not use this kind of terminology with my players. Throwing "like a girl" is a similar term that I would use with you but not with them.

Originally Posted by softballphreak

The problem I see with a high elbow is the momentum that is created when the elbow moves down into the slot; this has a tendency to make the bat head drop and it definitely takes more time to get there.

Have to agree with you again. And not just the bat head. You also need to watch out for the whole upper torso changing axis during rotation.

Originally Posted by obbay

Physics. Once a body is in motion it is easier to keep it moving than to start from a dead stop. Does Kevin Youklis's or Gary Sheffield's pre-swing bat theatrics slow down the swing? My belief is that Contact is the direct result of timing more than batspeed (batspeed relating more to power). That skill or ability is developed by the batter and adjusted/fine tuned from pitch to pitch to compensate for variation in pitch speed. If a slapper can pull back on a pitch that they've already committed to, how much impact is raising or lowering the rear elbow going to make on getting around on a ball in time to hit it?.

If you are saying you have to diagnose the individual hitter rather than just setting a rule here, I agree.

Originally Posted by obbay

Interesting point about Vlad's swing- I would call that elbow up. The "elbows down" start that I have seen advocated involves both elbows down so that a bat resting in the crook of the elbows remains parallel to the ground throughout the swing. To me this is binding the upper arms tight to the body from start thru contact. .

This is why it's important to use pictures and clips. Too many different definitions and people who agree with each other end up arguing.

Originally Posted by obbay

If a player is hitting well I don't ask them to change a thing. If they are struggling, I suggest tweaks to their swing and see what works. Often I find that starting with the rear elbow away from the body enables the swing to change from a weak, girlie swing to a powerful, ballplayer swing..

If a hitter is hitting as well as they want to at the highest level they aspire to, let'em hit. If they are smoking mediocre pitching with a seven frame swing and they want to play in college, different story.

Thanks for the great information as always. My takeaway from this discussion is that there is no "right" technique; somewhere between reverse V and 90 degrees is fine. Timing and getting into the "slot" are key. To use a golf example, Jim Furyk and Tiger Woods have completely different takeaways and downward swings, but as the club head approaches the ball, they both get the clubhead square at impact and both are fabulous drivers of the ball. At practice the other day, one of our girls (90 degree) was just ripping the ball off coach pitch, later another coach was working with her to lower the elbow a bit, she couldn't hit the ball anymore. Even at 7, she has already started ingraining her "natural" swing and I would imagine that it will be harder and harder to correct her swing as she gets older. My thought is to maybe work with what she has and not change it too much?

My thought is too many coaches change things to fit their mental picture of what is right. Messing with mechanics without a lot of learning and consulting often is like practicing medicine based on what you learned going to the doctor when you were sick. So yeah, think long and hard before you mess with a successful hitter. Doesn't mean you never should but there's a lot more well meaning bad hitting advice given out on the softball fields I've walked around than there is good advice. I should say swing advice because there is a difference. The hitting advice is usually pretty good. The advice on how to swing is usually terrible. I think every American male is born with the confidence they know how to swing a bat like Bonds and drive a car like Richard Petty. Been there done that myself.

Originally Posted by softballphreak

The problem I see with a high elbow is the momentum that is created when the elbow moves down into the slot; this has a tendency to make the bat head drop and it definitely takes more time to get there.

I am going to disagree with this one. More often than not the bat head will drop due to the front elbow being too low at the start of the swing then when they go negative the rear elbow will fly upward instead of back.

It is then that I see the bat head drop along with the hands because the hitter isnt strong enough to stay connected as the momentum of the swing builds during the unloading process.


Dana.

Good point, there is a big difference between swing advice and hitting advice. Also, I like the idea of sticking with one hitting instructor and/or technique and staying with it. Playing musical chairs with batting techniques/instructors will probably only confuse our girls. I think we coaches sometimes do more harm than good and our girls succeed in spite of our best intentions, not not necessarily because of them