Thread: Rotational Hitting

2-she says you should not open the hips until toe touch - BAD INFO, not compatible with Epstein, Epstein is better based on video of MLB and well desribed by Epstein as need for rubberbandwinding starting before toe touch with his particular emphasis on short quick belly up swing also fitting with front foot well open at toe touch.

Tom is right, this IS bad. Hips should rotate into toe plant, and do for any elite hitter.

Discouraging a hitter from getting the hips open as part of coiling prior to toe touch is EXTREMELY limiting and can only work with a very long "counterrotated" MLB swing (George Brett/Lau SR style where recommendation is to kepp front foot and hips closed), Even in this case there is coil/rubberbandwinding it is just done with too much upper body turn back/too long a swing radius while hips stay closed

Less right here. Opening the hips is very good. Opening the front foot PRIOR to the hips rotating is far less than ideal. Marginalizes the pelvic muscles. As one of Tom's guys (Mankin) says, in disagreement with Epstein (even though Tom says they are saying the same thing) - it "uses up" the hips without creating power.

Mankin is right.

3-She says rotation starts around front hip - very different from Epstein who says drill feels like stride to balance then weight carried more over inside of back thigh with drop and tilt - who is right here ? I think you have to look at video and take hacks and compare to others doing the same, but I will go with back hip as getting the rotation going, not front. Front leg provides a base to rotate over, but it is clearing as you wind the rubber band and responding to the thrust of the back hip, not anything like the 50-50 weight then front hip rotation that Enquist demonstartes.

I think Sue is right.

It is extremely difficult to PUSH into rotation. Easy enough to start linear movement that way, but not rotational movement.

The terms are imperfect, but if you are initiating forward movement from the rear side of the body, it is essentially a push. And doing it from the front side essentially makes it a pull.


Tom's advice to try it is good. he should too, with some students, but perhaps I have overstated that point. It matters though, as there is no other guage for wehat really works, and he truley doesn;t know, and can't know because he doesn;t do it.

Still, this is good advice. Try both, and see which approach leads to quicker, more efficient, TIGHTER rotation. And which hits the ball further. Suspect you'll end up agreeing with Enquist, not Epstein. But it is definitely worth trying.

WOW !!!!!!!!

SKEPTIC WITH THE CONTENT !!!!!

THANKS !!!!!!!

Here is a key problem:

skeptic:

"Less right here. Opening the hips is very good. Opening the front foot PRIOR to the hips rotating is far less than ideal. "

Skeptic - One KEY to acelerating learning of the MLB pattern is its similarity to overhand and sidearm throw.

Slaught/Candrea/Enquist and even Dixon are very good at using this, recognizing the similarity in rhythm. A long slow (slaught would say "linear" I would say rotational becasue it is all controlled by setting up and executing torquing force on the handle) with the upper body in control.

See also Schwanke like throwing drills to feel the difference in back elbow position for going oppo vs pull.

See alos yeager's method of synching body to top hand action.

ARM ACTION IS KING IN SETTING PATTERN.

Upper and lower body need to synch.

Slaught/Enquist/Candrea are right when they say "back elbow starts rotation" and "hips synch with back elbow".

The way this happens is the lower body mirrors the same action as the upper body, specifically by synching external rotation of the back arm to external rotation of the front leg.

This is how you get good timing of coil/good coil/synch of upper and lower body programs. Same in throwing - when the throwing arm brings the throwing hand up (back arm external rotation rotation while "keeping back elbow up") then the stride leg turns over (external rotation of front leg).

So if you force keeping the front foot closed, then you prevent synching the upper and lower body and prevent the upper body from controlling the motion.

Front leg MUST turn open before hips and both must turn to start coiling before heel drop.

It helps to think more about how trow and swing are similar. From trowing it s much easier to learn hip cock and body synch then apply this to the swing.

Originally Posted by tom.guerry

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Front leg MUST turn open before hips and both must turn to start coiling before heel drop.

Not sure what you mean here, but here is my take on it

If the hitter coils/loads into the back leg/hip the hips will be at a negative angle (assuming squared up is 0 angle). As the hitter strides out the hips will move back to 0 angle and continue to positive angle. This will open the front foot. That is the difference between flipping the front foot open to start rotation and letting the uncoiling of the hips do it for you.

You don't need to think about landing open - the hips will open the front foot for you.

I agree that throwing and hitting are very similar. I also think that this is why most fastpitch players have terrible swings. They never learned to throw using their lower body correctly. Most hitting instructors come up with upper body techniques to solve the hitting problem - me included. (If you have worked with hitters HS age you come to understand just how difficult it is to get them to change their habits.)

And if the hitter can figure out how to load the upper body as the lower body is striding out in a balanced manner, they will solve the basic hitting and throwing pattern and be more whip like in their delivery on both bat and ball.

MTS-

I agree throwing and swinging are very similar, as Candrea says, if you can throw, you can hit. And they have lots of good related concepts like conection/addition/rhythm etc.

None of that is like the shirt quick 5 frame PCR swing. That is what Candrea and Enquist are describing as the "gate swing".

If you want to teach throwing and swinging together, then you need a good throw model. I would suggest the best model here is a combo of the overall Nyman "buggy whip" supplemented by the Hodge details of arm action and upper lower body synch and the Wolforth details on scap and lead arm action ("double" bow-arch-bow as opposed to Nyman bow-arch-bow).

Without a model it s hard to organize the discusion.

Unfortunately, Nyman himself got confused when he developed the details of his PCR blueprint and ended up describing the type swing pattern that is NOT like an overhand throw which is why things like sidearm throw do not make sense to the PCR-fever crowd.

here is where Nyman went off track not undertstanding there are 2 very different total body patterns depending on how scaps/shoulders "function" in connecting body and arms. He was right the first time before he went for simplicity and a pattern of swinging that is not at all like throwing:

Active Hands and Bat Drag - Baseball Fever

Nyman:

"In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.

Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.

And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.

Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.

My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.

But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body.

My daughter's front foot is open 35 to 45 degrees when her heel plants. IMO and my wife's opinion (physical therapist) hitting with a closed front foot can lead to injury of the front knee.

Plus there are too many examples of ML players past and present who hit with an open front foot. Willie Mays and Pujols are two that come to mind.

I still think that a lot of the finer details of the swing happen instinctively. Epstein seems to understand this better than most. He says something along the lines of "the perfect swing being the adjustment the hitter makes to the pitch".

For instance as far as I can tell Epstein does not teach "tilt in". He focuses big time on maintaining the box. From teaching my daughter and a few others, I can say without a doubt that the most difficult movement for a hitter to master is keeping the box until contact or at least close to contact.

What I have found is that the over emphasis on the box leads my daughter to naturally "tilt in" to match the plane of her swing to the pitch. The over emphasis on the box forces her brain to come with an alternate way to match her swing plane to lower pitches while still trying to maintain the box.

The body eventually figures out that the best way to accomplish both is to "tilt in".

Originally Posted by Wellphyt

My daughter's front foot is open 35 to 45 degrees when her heel plants.

The issue is not whether the foot lands closed or open. The issue is why it lands closed or open. Two different animals.

The issue is not whether the foot lands closed or open. The issue is why it lands closed or open. Two different animals.

EXACTLY right, and lost on most. Very, very good point. Hips drive the rotation, and if the foot comes open, it does. You DON'T fan open the front nee and foot to clear the way for the hips. Not if you want to generate any power, anyway.


Tom's usual mantra on throwing / hitting is predictable.

Probably some value in the approach for some. And if there is, great.

But there are PLENTY of RH throwers who bat left-handed rather than right-handed. For THOSE people, this would be absolute gibberish. In FastPitch AND MLB.

So it obviously isn't an absolute, even though he tries to make it one.


And DON"T map hitting to sidearm throwing. For one thing, lots of kids are catchers and outfielders and would NEVER throw side-armed. And as pointed out above by Mark (and me), great hitters DO NOT "skip rocks." Their hands are still up somewhere near the rear shoulder as they come around the corner. Mapping hitting to the SIDEARM throw WILL be a disaster for many, perhaps most. Trust me on this, unless you have a very clear idea of what you are doing and understand timing measured in the milliseconds, this WON'T work for your daughter. And you may end up with a problem you'll never be able to fix.


MTS's point that SB players need better lower body throwing mechanics is fine, excellent even. By all means, improve this. It may well help hitting, as there ARE similarities. But DON'T try ANYTHING CLOSE to what feels like "skipping a rock" in your swing.


As for Tom's usual slams on the PCR pattern, I don't undertand his rants on that. I'm told by those more familiar with it than me that Tom isn't even close to understanding it (because none of those guys will even TALK to him), and that in fact he used to be a moderator at Nyman's web site (Nyman invented it). And was fired from that job, then decided he hated the methodology.

IF that s true - and Tom should set it straight if it isnt, and I will back down - he was obviously disingenious before or since. At BEST.


In college softball today, I see more conformity to the MLB swing than anytime since I've been involved (20 years +). And the swing looks far more like what I see posted of clips from guys like Englishbey than it does from Epstein (Tom's guy). I think Englishbey is one that Tom casts aside disparagingly as a "PCR guy."

Well, OK, whatever. It is working OK from where I sit.

No agenda here. Those are my observations.

For instance as far as I can tell Epstein does not teach "tilt in". He focuses big time on maintaining the box. From teaching my daughter and a few others, I can say without a doubt that the most difficult movement for a hitter to master is keeping the box until contact or at least close to contact.

You might be on to something there. It IS difficult, under any circumstances. It is IMPOSSIBLE if you are trying to skip a rock, but difficult under any conditions. But it is very important to keep it until the last frame or two before contact.


But I don't think Epstein talks anything about the box. Or even tells hitters where their hands and arms should be. Not in his instructional materials anyway. he simply tells them to rest the bat on the deltoid.

Epstein may well talk about it in other places. And great if he does - he should be talking about it.

But he has sold tens of thousands of tapes / DVDs and the VAST majority of those people never consulted anything other than the DVD.


I THINK "keeping the box" is a Nyman / Englishbey term. I know it is a point of emphasis for them to connect the bat to the body, tilt, and turn.

And I am finding it works against college level pitching. So I think you are on track. But you may want to check out Englishbey as a better authority on this than Epstein. I have found his material helpful.


As for the front foot being open, your observation is right. MANY elite hitters do have an open foot. Others, like Bonds, talk often about trying to keep it closed. But that could well be as simple as how hitters describe a 45 degree angled front foot. Could be seen as open, could be seen as closed. Depends on your point of view.


But as MTS asked, what CAUSES it?

That is the key, and with really good hitters, I DON'T think it is the knee and foor coming open as a prelude to hip rotation. I think it is the actual rotation of the hips that causes it.

Sounds like you are thinking and experimenting a lot with your daughter. Good! Hope it pays off for her.

My daughter's front foot is open 35 to 45 degrees when her heel plants. IMO and my wife's opinion (physical therapist) hitting with a closed front foot can lead to injury of the front knee.

I have NEVER seen this happen.

If there are range of motion issues, the knee will open up. Unless you have 3" spikes in mud or something.


But again, the foot does open for elite hitters. Some at heel plant, some during the swing before contact, for almost it opens further after contact. The foot opens.

Timing of when it opens is probably imporatnt for very, very advanced hitters looking for the last little edge.

But what is far more important is what CAUSES the foot to open. I believe that with the best hitters, it is a result fo the hips beginning to roate. With VERY good hitters, this happens during the stride. With no stride hitters, or beginning-to-intermediate hitters, it happens around or just after foot plant. But the hips begin to powerfully rotate and drive the swing. That is an absolute.

As one of Tom's guys (Mankin) says, in disagreement with Epstein (even though Tom says they are saying the same thing) - it "uses up" the hips without creating power.

Mankin is right.

Notice you ddn't respond to this.

Even though Mankin and Epstein are allegedly saying the same thing Tom, Mankin specifically disagrees with him on his DVD.

Go set him straight, tell him what he really means, and get back to us would you please?



I tried to read your posts of today Tom. I just gave up. You NEVER address the points people make or do anything other than republish your same stuff in different (not that much different, actually) verbiage.

You have worn me out, for sure.

But unless you can explain that you DO work with kids, or explain why it isn't important, I can't give credibility to your meanderings. I don't tell you how to be a doctor, and I wouldn't unless I had actually done it in this millenium. You should extend the same courtesy, or at least address the point. Otherwise, I have lost interest in conversing with you.


I think you also should explain why yo used to support Nyman and no longer do. If it is because the material is wrong, why were you affiliated with him? Seems agenda-laden to me.