Critique / Help Series of Swings

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Aug 29, 2011
1,114
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Dallas, TX
Steve Huff,

This in particular makes no sense and probably deserves a more well thought out description with visuals in its own thread....but to humor you I would disagree with your analysis and say "rear shoulder drop" aka lateral tilt is a function of your lower body....

It is actually quite simple. The arms form a box, or frame. That frame in softball and usually in baseball is considered to ideally be about 90 degrees between the elbows. As the back elbow is approaching the hip, the general height of the pitch is assumed, and the box or frame assumes a facilitating tilt, just as Pujols or any other video shows. The tilt creates the angle of the bat. The angle of the bat is created by the front arm angle, shoulder angle, created by the tilt of the arm box. In any good swing, the front forearm and bat form a straight line. That is created by the box. As the front elbow comes up, and the front shoulder rises, the back shoulder drops correspondingly.

If the back shoulder drops, then the shoulders and equally the head, are tilted at the hip connection and at contact. Jessica Mendoza in slow motion. Stop it where you will. The forearms maintain that "90 degree" relationship until after contact, and end up in the "power V" (some like to call it) after full extension. Box tilt = back shoulder drop. Box stays harmonious through contact ideally at same angle of "90 degrees". You can't raise your front shoulder without dropping your back shoulder. Her first movement when the back elbow is coming to connection at the hip, is her front elbow rises, the front shoulder rises, the back shoulder drops. She creates her bat angle to attack the plane of the ball, and after contact you can see the arm and bat are in a straight line. And very important, that shoulder angle will match the bat angle in an ideal swing.

Now one more point. Try dropping your back shoulder as a matter of standard technique, in other words all swings involve that shoulder drop, and now try to hit a rise ball! You won't even touch a high fastball because your bat head is going to be thrown up through the plane of the ball. Since this young lady, who truly does most things very, very well, is dropping her back shoulder, in effect creating tilt, then why are her hips at the same level in the video in #172, if as you say, the backside drops the shoulder?

In the second video Sue Enquist explains some of these issues, and you can watch her elbows and shoulder. You can see a little of the front forearm alignment with the bat also. In the 3rd video Crystal Bustos demonstrates the "arm box" or frame.

swing in slow motion - YouTube

Fastpitch Hitting Instruction by Sue Enquist - Bat Lag - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6y7Oyv48cs

LAUNCH:
Now MTS, about "launch". In my hitting method with is normal for 99% of all coaches, though some coaches such as Candrea preach a little more linear hitting than before, if you freeze the frame when the elbow reaches the hip, and the hands are directly above the elbow, you will see the bat projected directly back toward the catcher. That is a fully loaded wrist position providing the most power. In your gif of McCutchen whose swing I like, you can see his first movement is a projection or push of the hands toward the ball. I like his swing. And when your load is far to the rear, it creates that longer looking swing. Observe photos 4 & 5 in the series below. If you stop any of these swings at that point, with the elbow and hand stacked at the hip or slightly later as in 5, the bat position will look similar pointed straight back. The bat head moves to get behind the hands in all those swings.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j399/baseballgifs/McCutchen/McCutchen_side_slo.gif

Hit sequence.jpg
 
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Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
knightmishit_zpsb8ab6b44.gif


She hits the ball a bit on the inside of the sweet spot of the bat...it happens, thats why they make them so big these days.

Bat Head...I believe the head is the end of anything. So yes the BAT HEAD is below the ball.
The CONTACT POINT....to me means the point of the bat that comes in contact with the ball. Her CONTACT POINT does not go below the ball. If you mean the CONTACT POINT as the absolute center of the sweet spot, then yes her's is below the ball. I did not give her advice on this...the burden of proof doesn't lay on me.

Well if her contact point does not go below the ball, then why did she hit the tee? The contact point for the ball and where she hit the tee are the same point on the barrel. You can also see her bat climbing immediately after contact with the ball and tee, and going back up through the plane of the ball. Bat head? Yeah and the bat head is about 18" long, and that is the end of it! Call it barrel if you prefer. I also sometimes call it barrel in my posts.

Lastly there is nothing wrong with a miss-hit. I just wanted to see what caused this looping swing and miss. The simple truth is she was reaching far out, leaning far out, to reach the ball. So her extension ended early and that produced the bat climb or upper-cut. But I couldn't see that until I saw a picture of how far the tee is from her. That involves a question I asked earlier about where does your extension end, where is it pointed when hitting a ball to RF? I asked the same question about a low outside pitch.
 
Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
"You provide no video or gif where the plane of the bat goes below the ball". Yes, not knightsb's daughter, but in the gifs you offer of the college girls, the bat head or contact point, to be specific if that helps your understanding, does not go below the ball. Knightsb's daughter's bat, bat head, or contact point does go below the ball. Not hard to understand. You know what I am saying all along. That part of the bat which would normally make contact on the ball. Pretty simple. I do not change my point. I change my language to help you. And I specified we were not talking about the bat tip or end cap.

Hers HERS?? It originally was typed "Here is". Part of it got lost somehow.

This looks like an old trick of yours: "At no point in the swing of any bat, by any batter, below the back elbow, is the bat tip not lower than the contact point. In none of your gifs, do I see an uppercut of any significance that is visible. Just as in the video below, the contact pointit looks to me that see hit it just on the inside of the sweet spot? Is that what you are trying to say? That she didn't hit it perfect dead center on the sweet spot? goes below the ball and she misses it completely, even though it is a horizontal plane.her hands are above the ball, that is not horizontal, that is diagonal It is also possible for the "bat" or "contact point" to go below the ball in a low pitch, as knightsb's daughter did.what? In knightsb, I see his daughter's contact point go below the ball, and that was at full speed. The still shot proves it.the shot proves what? That she upper cut swings? or she missed the center of the sweet spot? You are not helping the OP."

"goes below the ball and she misses it completely, even though it is a horizontal plane." It isn't a horizontal plane." I wrote that! I think it is a fair criticism because I exaggerated. It is a fairly horizontal plane. And you are correct, that the hands are a little above the ball as shown in your gif below from post #154. When I read this it sounded a little convoluted and incomplete. It crosses two axis which I talked about and that is not truly horizontal. So according to you, she hit the ball, not the tee and the ball. According to you, the bat had a flat trajectory to the ball? Well I think anyone with 20/80 vision can see differently.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y403/karandjas/knightcontact_zpsc8b50293.gif
from post #154

You went from a good point to just plane dumb: "When the bat is flat, you don't have to judge accurately the horizontal plane because if you are accurate vertically, the ball may contact at any point on the barrel and have solid contact. So now your saying swing the barrel flat?" No, I am not saying anything similar. I am saying that if your bat is flat, you do not have to be accurate in evaluating the ball on the horizontal plane. If your bat is swung vertical, such as at the knees inside, you do not have to be a accurate on the vertical plane.

"Uh yeah, so if the bat is straight up and down the ball stands more of a chance of missing it to the right or left. If the bat is parallel to the ground, the ball stands more of a chance of missing it above or below. So what?" Exactly! When you have the swing which is at 45 degrees diagonally, such as at the low outside corner, you have a chance to miss more often on 2, not 1 axis.

"the shot proves what? That she upper cut swings? or she missed the center of the sweet spot?" The photo and gif show that she missed the ball, and her contact point hit the tee and bottom of the ball, and that she had a loopy swing, with a serious upper-cut after contact.

I am supplying a graphic, a photo, of the young lady's swing as provided by knightsb. "a still photo of an action" Yes actually! I am supplying a photo which is blurred, showing her bat path, just as the later gif shows that issue even more completely. If you look at that gif in #177 you can see that the bat makes a pretty deep "U" shaped path to the ball. Any diagonal swing will have a "U' shape simply because this isn't perfectly horizontal, (Again, I refer to the gif re-posted above from post #154 which shows it to be fairly horizontal), but this is deep. And this is one little swing! One! That is being drug into the mud as if it is a crime scene. It was an innocent miss!

Am I disagreeing with MTS? Yes! Knightsb asked for opinion. MTS nor your opinion preclude anyone else's opinion, unless you are of certain political persuasions and try to shut other people up. I have a right to disagree. That would be best done with some evidence to support an argument. But you always resort to the same equivocating obfuscating diatribe that simulates ad hominem attack. Just disagree, and state your case. If you can't prove a point, or if you like linear hitting more than rotational, or if you like MTS's point, then stick with it. Your view does not threaten me in the least. And MTS's view does not threaten me or the sport. It is a theory and point of view. My point of view is that knightsb's daughter has few issues to correct. She is very good, just overstrides, getting too stretched out, has a barred front arm which MTS says is not big deal and I very much disagree. Like hitting inside pitches with a barred arm! Creating an inside out swing with a barred front arm! And she needs to learn to hit the ball deeper as the pitch moves away from her in the strike zone. So my view is more simple about her abilities. Make your point.
 
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Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
I guess I am not the only weirdo!

How about we stop with the attacks? Hmmm? Disagreement about technique is not attack.

BatSpeed.com_Baseball and Softball Swing Hitting Mechanics
"The concept is this: if you just quickly extend or "throw your hands" at the ball, the bat head will snap through "like the crack of a whip."

ChrisOLeary.com - Pain : Change : Innovation (and Baseball) : "Bat Drag changes where, when, and how the bat head starts to whip; "

From a rdbass post quoting Dr. Yeager: "Learning to Throw-the-Bat-Head (NOT "swing" the bat) is the foundation of a professional baseball-training program. "Learning to throw the bat and not swing the bat is the foundation of Dr. Yeager’s Iso-Hitting training program. Throwing the bat head is also the first thing you must do to develop your swing. "This is because the batter throws against the front side to create rotational speed in the bat head as opposed to the thrower who continues forward with the primary goal of imparting linear speed to the baseball."

From ISO baseball: "You have to learn to feel that throwing action in your top hand. You must feel the top hand throw or whip the bat head through the hitting zone."

Jugssports.com: "Hitter places top hand open and flat against the bat and throws the "club head" at the ball.

SwingMechanics Home Page : "While doing this, you want to throw the bat handle at the ball. Remember, the longer you keep the bat head back, the more whip you will create."

youthbaseball_e_zine.homestead.com/Hitting.html : "The goal of the standard grip is to achieve greater quickness and bat speed, thus "throwing the head of the bat at the ball."

Baseball Excellence - We Teach Baseball - Instructional videos, books, equipment, accessories, and newsletters for coaches and players : "Purpose: To teach the hitter to throw the club head of the bat ... top hand open and flat against the bat and throws the "club head" at the ball."

Bat head or barrel, take your pick! End cap, bat tip, NO! Sweet spot, contact point, YES!
 
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Jul 10, 2008
380
18
Central PA
Where is the explanation of the proper way to perform the SNF?

1. Toes pointed at pitcher. Allow upper body turn to pull outside foot up on toe. Get a better stretch in the lower back. The rest of weight on inside foot/leg.
2. Twist your shoulders back and make sure your inside knee does not twist back. You will need to bend your inside leg and sit (stick your butt out) to get the feeling of your inside leg and inside hip joint coil tightly. (Standing straight up and down won't give you the right feel.) FEEL the stretch up the rear side.
3. You should also bend over at the hip joints so you can look down and see a spot on the floor and not your foot.
4. Get your front shoulder pointed at the first baseman (RH hitter) or third baseman (LH hitter). Load hands/elbow to tighten scap point the knob to catcher. Keep tightening the stretch between inside leg turned forward and back pulling rearward.
5. Once the bat gets turned rearward your body will seek balance and that will release your hips and spring you so to speak. The leg and hip should drive first and then the barrel will follow.
6. Launch/turn the barrel away from the 1B (RH)/3B (LH) to start the swing. Make sure you understand that launch is a release, like a slingshot, not a hard push.
7. Make sure you swing OUT from the body, not around, and get behind the inside leg pulling.
 
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R

RayR

Guest
Mountie - Change #1/2 to:

Toes pointed at pitcher - Allow upper body turn to pull outside foot up on toe. Get a better stretch in the lower back.
 

redhotcoach

Out on good behavior
May 8, 2009
4,706
38
"You provide no video or gif where the plane of the bat goes below the ball". Yes, not knightsb's daughter, but in the gifs you offer of the college girls, the bat head or contact point, to be specific if that helps your understanding, does not go below the ball. Knightsb's daughter's bat, bat head, or contact point does go below the ball. Not hard to understand. You know what I am saying all along. That part of the bat which would normally make contact on the ball. Pretty simple. I do not change my point. I change my language to help you. And I specified we were not talking about the bat tip or end cap.

Hers HERS?? It originally was typed "Here is". Part of it got lost somehow.

This looks like an old trick of yours: "At no point in the swing of any bat, by any batter, below the back elbow, is the bat tip not lower than the contact point. In none of your gifs, do I see an uppercut of any significance that is visible. Just as in the video below, the contact pointit looks to me that see hit it just on the inside of the sweet spot? Is that what you are trying to say? That she didn't hit it perfect dead center on the sweet spot? goes below the ball and she misses it completely, even though it is a horizontal plane.her hands are above the ball, that is not horizontal, that is diagonal It is also possible for the "bat" or "contact point" to go below the ball in a low pitch, as knightsb's daughter did.what? In knightsb, I see his daughter's contact point go below the ball, and that was at full speed. The still shot proves it.the shot proves what? That she upper cut swings? or she missed the center of the sweet spot? You are not helping the OP."

"goes below the ball and she misses it completely, even though it is a horizontal plane." It isn't a horizontal plane." I wrote that! I think it is a fair criticism because I exaggerated. It is a fairly horizontal plane. And you are correct, that the hands are a little above the ball as shown in your gif below from post #154. When I read this it sounded a little convoluted and incomplete. It crosses two axis which I talked about and that is not truly horizontal. So according to you, she hit the ball, not the tee and the ball. According to you, the bat had a flat trajectory to the ball? Well I think anyone with 20/80 vision can see differently.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y403/karandjas/knightcontact_zpsc8b50293.gif
from post #154

You went from a good point to just plane dumb: "When the bat is flat, you don't have to judge accurately the horizontal plane because if you are accurate vertically, the ball may contact at any point on the barrel and have solid contact. So now your saying swing the barrel flat?" No, I am not saying anything similar. I am saying that if your bat is flat, you do not have to be accurate in evaluating the ball on the horizontal plane. If your bat is swung vertical, such as at the knees inside, you do not have to be a accurate on the vertical plane.

"Uh yeah, so if the bat is straight up and down the ball stands more of a chance of missing it to the right or left. If the bat is parallel to the ground, the ball stands more of a chance of missing it above or below. So what?" Exactly! When you have the swing which is at 45 degrees diagonally, such as at the low outside corner, you have a chance to miss more often on 2, not 1 axis.

"the shot proves what? That she upper cut swings? or she missed the center of the sweet spot?" The photo and gif show that she missed the ball, and her contact point hit the tee and bottom of the ball, and that she had a loopy swing, with a serious upper-cut after contact.

I am supplying a graphic, a photo, of the young lady's swing as provided by knightsb. "a still photo of an action" Yes actually! I am supplying a photo which is blurred, showing her bat path, just as the later gif shows that issue even more completely. If you look at that gif in #177 you can see that the bat makes a pretty deep "U" shaped path to the ball. Any diagonal swing will have a "U' shape simply because this isn't perfectly horizontal, (Again, I refer to the gif re-posted above from post #154 which shows it to be fairly horizontal), but this is deep. And this is one little swing! One! That is being drug into the mud as if it is a crime scene. It was an innocent miss!

Am I disagreeing with MTS? Yes! Knightsb asked for opinion. MTS nor your opinion preclude anyone else's opinion, unless you are of certain political persuasions and try to shut other people up. I have a right to disagree. That would be best done with some evidence to support an argument. But you always resort to the same equivocating obfuscating diatribe that simulates ad hominem attack. Just disagree, and state your case. If you can't prove a point, or if you like linear hitting more than rotational, or if you like MTS's point, then stick with it. Your view does not threaten me in the least. And MTS's view does not threaten me or the sport. It is a theory and point of view. My point of view is that knightsb's daughter has few issues to correct. She is very good, just overstrides, getting too stretched out, has a barred front arm which MTS says is not big deal and I very much disagree. Like hitting inside pitches with a barred arm! Creating an inside out swing with a barred front arm! And she needs to learn to hit the ball deeper as the pitch moves away from her in the strike zone. So my view is more simple about her abilities. Make your point.

I can't make heads or toes out of this as to who said what and am not going to waste my time trying. If you said this
deep. And this is one little swing! One! That is being drug into the mud as if it is a crime scene. It was an innocent miss!
I completely agree. If you didn't, no matter, I had already said something similiar. My whole original point was that I didn't think her bat path was too bad, and several of her swings were similiar to the gifs I posted. I am done debating this.
 
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