Critique / Help Series of Swings

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

R

RayR

Guest
CabreraSVInsideLaunch.gif


This is the difference when you launch the barrel rearward as part of your swing. His hands burst forward to get the barrel around quicker and more inside....all this does is move the hand pivot point forward shortening the barrels arc.

Compared to....

500x395_DanVogelbach-copy.gif


Just a push forward with the hands and no rearward movement of the barrel....short zone...

And watch the Cabrera clip with this in mind....the rear elbow is moving down as the barrel is moving rearward....they are connected....
 
Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
Ha, long time no hear from! I am fine. My shoulder still gives me trouble and when I lie on my left side I can feel the weakness sometimes, but honestly I feel fine but old. Softball is fine over there. Italy has really regressed, honestly because of the two women who were coaching the National team. For instance, they do not allow any pitcher to throw a change-up because they don't believe in it! So in Whitehorse Italy under-played badly. I never go to the Netherlands but they did well, except their first 3 pitchers. The 4th pitcher pitched really well. I am just trying to keep the girls away from boys. I think next winter I will be moving permanently to Europe. I will go back in May and also to China for one month. Did you miss my trouble-making?

How are you? By the way, I am going to meet with Howard to see if I can learn some new training approaches. Once I am gone for good, it will be harder to pick up something new. I talked to him for about 3 hours on the phone and found him very interesting.

One of the Italian team pitchers is moving to Calgary this month. Are there any Canadians posting here?
 
Last edited:
Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
"And watch the Cabrera clip with this in mind....the rear elbow is moving down as the barrel is moving rearward....they are connected...."
Yes they do. And if you have a high back elbow, if you have a vertical bat, then that is the picture you will see. If you have a flatter bat angle, an elbow that isn't lifted, and highly dipped front shoulder, then the view is entirely different. That doesn't mean these things are ideal, although I like a little forward slant to the shoulders. I do teach maintaining that 90 degree relationship to the elbows. I also teach connection separately in the beginning or when needed by putting the bat head flat against the shoulder and keeping it there until the pant seam. I also then have them hit from this position.

You know what MTS. That bat in the first .gif stays in connection at his shoulder the whole time. His hip rotation isn't good, but other than that, I see nothing unusual. His bat tip follows his shoulder, just like the video you showed me before of Posey, where the shadow and the bat stays on his shoulder until he extends. It is the same here, and I don't know where in the heck you get this bat turn business. You can not "turn" the bat, launching it backward without changing the relationship of the wrists to the bat. If that was the case, the "box", the angle between the elbows would also change during the swing. There is nothing new here. This is basic connection.

Until the 8th click of Cabrera's swing, there is no bat movement away from the shoulder, and everyone can see it. It is called connection which ends at the pant seam. I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel. There are illusions. Bat angle above the shoulder can do it. Hitting the ball deep on the outside part of the plate can create the illusion, because the swing doesn't change. Vladimir playing lawn cricket doesn't prove anything. Even the girl in your drill video is simulating hitting an outside pitch. Turn her toe toward RF and look at the difference. When the ball is hit that deep, that is where it should be going.

You can not take one gif or video and say, this is the hitter's swing. As I said before there are very few perfect swings in baseball or softball; only when everything is working FOR the hitter. Timing, mechanics, a hitter's pitch, etc. How many good swings are there on change-ups?

I teach some lousy hitters in Europe in youth programs. I do everything I can to shorten that stroke and keep connection instead of launching the bat back behind the foot, (don't think outside pitch here). I do everything I can to keep them from hitting with a barred arm, and you are reversing all that here. I even posted a video of some of those girls on youtube. It is like pounding rubber nails through steel to make changes.
 
Last edited:
R

RayR

Guest
Yup....this bat turn business is crazy....

AdGonz_side_lowaway.gif


I have seen many a player try to swing with this connection business that was made up out of nowhere a few years back (why did they have to reinvent the wheel?) and build swings where they pulled off everything unless they were hitting off a well timed machine....then they reinvented the wheel again and created something called "the box" so that hitters could just turn their shoulders and the bat would magically hit the ball....all they had to do was tilt over the right amount....

Here is another bat turner....maybe not perfect (kind of two steps it) but it worked 3304 times so far....

Jeter1.gif
 
Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
Yup....this bat turn business is crazy....

AdGonz_side_lowaway.gif

I told you before that when hitting a low pitch, the batter tries to get behind the pitch or beat it in the ground. I can think of another case when it happens, when trying to pull an outside pitch. But this is not a technique issue unless you can post every swing of Gonazlez from ONE game to show me his mechanics. You are beating a dead horse with me. You are searching for something that is already known and understood. It isn't new. If you want to tell me that doing this on every swing every location works best. Then teach it. Don't expect me to take this with me. This last gif I would like to see slowed down. The Jeter one counts though if it looks the same slowed down.But that will not make a difference. You never address the points I make about shoulder connection in those Kinsler, Posey and other gifs. I think this is working like east - midwest politics. Just consider me from Montana and therefore stupid. That will relieve you of your stress. Also some guys who have weaker back hip action will have deeper rearward lag. There are explanations for all of them perhaps with the exception of Jeter. I don now nor will I ever accept that the bat dropping to the plane is some unique technique caused by some revelation in hitting. It is a function of various conditions surrounding the process of going from shoulder to hip connection. Sorry! And I am finished unless you give me that Jeter slow motion swing. You can't just keep throwing gifs out there, that isn't debate. You never address my points. And some of the gifs you post, completely support my points.
 
R

RayR

Guest
You never address the points I make about shoulder connection in those Kinsler, Posey and other gifs.

That's because the swing is not shoulder driven so there is no point in debating "shoulder connection"....I have shown multiple clips illustrating hitters that use their hands/wrists/forearms to turn the bat rearward to launch the swing....the shoulder connection you see is a by product of good early barrel action getting behind the rear hip.

I don now nor will I ever accept that the bat dropping to the plane is some unique technique caused by some revelation in hitting.

I never said bat dropping - that is how you translate my words.

I told you before that when hitting a low pitch, the batter tries to get behind the pitch or beat it in the ground

This one is a head scratcher...are you saying the hitter has time to launch the swing differently for different locations? I'd like to see some examples....

I mean I showed you a clip of Cabrera in an inside pitch so now I will show an outside pitch and an inside pitch

Outside
Cabrera_side_08.gif


Inside
Cabrera_side_inside.gif


And high
Cabrera_FB94_highside_zpsa5062060.gif


Different locations - same launch
Cabrera_96o_94i_85o_80i_sync.gif
 
Jul 10, 2008
380
18
Central PA
MTS, I have been following this exchange and the other threads on this topic for a while, and I've been slow to understand the "turning the barrel" (among other things in my life). But after seeing a non-example, I finally see it. Now that I get it (and the steel bar analogy now makes sense, too), to me, this is probably the easiest way to explain/demonstrate staying on plane, regardless of pitch location.

Thanks for the Cabrera clips and all the different ways of explaining it.
 

redhotcoach

Out on good behavior
May 8, 2009
4,706
38


Coach Bucher....talk "turning the barrel".


disclaimer: I don't know Bucher, haven't looked at anything he has done, just saw he was talking about turning the barrel. So no one get all excited (Mann) and hold me accountable for anything this guy has teaches.
 
Last edited:
Aug 29, 2011
1,114
0
Dallas, TX
Hmm! so you can see better at full speed? that is interesting because when I am gone from the game for a few months here in the States, and return and begin evaluating, it takes me a few days to get my eyes and brain adjusted to seeing hitting traits. In fact, I have to look sequentially at different aspects. It often takes me 10 swings to see everything and catch everything. I can see every fault or good in a single slow motion sequence. But I also don't evaluate ONE swing. One swing may tell everything or nothing. So I look at a series in slow motion.

I have a question for you. It is a followup to the point I made before about the perspective that swings, especially with a high bat angle, pitches that are outside and hit deep in the zone, or low pitches create this bat launched back notion. Let's say you are Kemp. You hold the bat at a very high bat angle, almost vertical. You get a low outside fastball, and you can't lay off of it. You bite, take a swing, and you hit it for a medium height fly ball to right field. What did your swing path look like? Break it down for me. Because you and I will probably agree. The question is why will we agree. The answer is two completely different reasons.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,474
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top