Rotation

mann said:

Well, well, thanks for hanging in there red hot.
So the START of the swing would be the hips uncoiling?

In my mind the start of the swing would be slot, the barrel moving towards ball.

You see, to me, shift then swing = seperation.

Are you just saying dont put all your weight down, then uncoil? or the heal drop does not trigger the swing?

Click to expand...

Uncoil = Slop

How do you shift then swing and have separation? separation between what and what? Shift then swing = front foot hitter = shoulder powered swing = swing around instead of throw through.

The rear hip coils and maintains the coil. The rear leg is turning in. The rear leg moves the rear hip forward while the rear hi is trying to maintain the coil. You are maintaining the coil to create connection. If you lose the coil you are creating slop. Why would you tighten something to just let it loosen?

I want to be Honey Boo Boo's hitting coach

How do you shift then swing and have separation? separation between what and what

Click to expand...

hold scap pinch, while hips begin to UNCOIL. Seperation between the turning hips and your shoulders.

You can turn your leg in all you want, coil foward, then uncoil.

By the way red hot the reason busters foot slips, is because his weight stayed to far back, you can see this if you look at his back foot.

Hype i do want to thank you for Bonds tomohock discussion. i can see now that what he does with his hands.

Why would you tighten something, to let it loosen? Why coil, if you dont uncoil.

mann said:

hold scap pinch, while hips begin to UNCOIL. Seperation between the turning hips and your shoulders.

Click to expand...

How does one do this with the weight on the front foot? Separation between the shoulders and turning hips create an around swing. Separation between the pulling, coiled rear hip and the hands create a puling forward of the hands in a fairly straight line on an inside path.

mann said:

Hype i do want to thank you for Bonds tomohock discussion. i can see now that what he does with his hands.

Why would you tighten something, to let it loosen? Why coil, if you dont uncoil.

Click to expand...

It is HYP, I don't buy into hype. I didn't show the Bonds tomahock video. Glad you learned something.

I coil to maintain connection. I coil to create resistance. I coil to create suddenness. If you coil and then uncoil you are just pushing. The rear hip will go out and around. you will lose energy before it reaches the barrel.

If I coil and maintain the coil the rear hip comes around from the inside and the energy is directed into the bat.

Lets take a right hand hitter. What you describe. The hitter takes his rear hip away from the plate towards the SS (coil) and then reverses it back toward the plate (uncoil) this creates slop. This is just a turn close and then turn open.

What I am saying is this. Keep the rear hip pulling back toward the SS. It continues to roll around the top of the femur in that direction. It never reverses. Once it gets to it's furthest point around towards the SS it is now headed towards the pitcher but it is coming from the inside and not out and around which uncoil would create. With the continuous coil you get suddenness, explosiveness. You will maintain a tight feel on the backside a connection.

If you coil to uncoil you release that tightness. You loose that inside path.

Hyp, the way you are describing it is the way I think about except that I just want our hitters to think with their rear leg....Swingbuilder uses "hold the beachball" but I think it's more like "pop the beachball" meaning if you stay back your you will sit into your rear leg as you stride so the legs are spreading....once your back leg/knee fires to pop the beachball against your front leg - your legs close up and instead of round hip rotation you get a direct firing of the legs...

And if you are trying to pop the beachball with back leg - there will be certain amount of "loading" or external rotation of the back upper leg to create some momentum while the rear hip is coiling...because if you try and press the knee forward too soon you end up with the knee under you holding a beachball which leads to hips turning....

HYP said:

How does one do this with the weight on the front foot? Separation between the shoulders and turning hips create an around swing. Separation between the pulling, coiled rear hip and the hands create a puling forward of the hands in a fairly straight line on an inside path.



It is HYP, I don't buy into hype. I didn't show the Bonds tomahock video. Glad you learned something.

I coil to maintain connection. I coil to create resistance. I coil to create suddenness. If you coil and then uncoil you are just pushing. The rear hip will go out and around. you will lose energy before it reaches the barrel.

If I coil and maintain the coil the rear hip comes around from the inside and the energy is directed into the bat.

Lets take a right hand hitter. What you describe. The hitter takes his rear hip away from the plate towards the SS (coil) and then reverses it back toward the plate (uncoil) this creates slop. This is just a turn close and then turn open.

What I am saying is this. Keep the rear hip pulling back toward the SS. It continues to roll around the top of the femur in that direction. It never reverses. Once it gets to it's furthest point around towards the SS it is now headed towards the pitcher but it is coming from the inside and not out and around which uncoil would create. With the continuous coil you get suddenness, explosiveness. You will maintain a tight feel on the backside a connection.

If you coil to uncoil you release that tightness. You loose that inside path.

Click to expand...

mann said:

hold scap pinch, while hips begin to UNCOIL. Seperation between the turning hips and your shoulders.

You can turn your leg in all you want, coil foward, then uncoil.

By the way red hot the reason busters foot slips, is because his weight stayed to far back, you can see this if you look at his back foot.

Hype i do want to thank you for Bonds tomohock discussion. i can see now that what he does with his hands.

Why would you tighten something, to let it loosen? Why coil, if you dont uncoil.

Click to expand...

Glad your separation now dosen't include already shifted weight like it did on your last post.

Buster's foot slides because his weight from the back is hitting it with his swing. You probably can't see it, but it should be obvious to everyone else that his rear side is almost completely unweighted for a moment near contact.

I am glad you understand what Bonds does with his hands, been nice if you understood the vid BEFORE you felt you should challenge me on it a month ago.

Sorry to original poster this went on so long, BUT to you and everyone else that does complain about the "DRAMA" (which 3/4 of the time is someone attacking my post helping a poster) there is a lot of good information in these debates. Read through them and you might learn.

Mann, as long as you are trying so hard to be the one who is right, you may never be correct. I am not going to continue repeating the obvious if you aren't going to try the experiments I ever suggest or look at the gifs I post. I am ignoring you.

Wow... lots of good info and it seems like different styles too.

How does one do this with the weight on the front foot?

Click to expand...

show me where i said seperation includes a wieghted front foot.

Glad to see im wrong and you"re right red hot,.... and I, have a closed mind

Again buster lost lost the front foot because his weight was to far back, never got enough weight OVER the foot, so it slipped out.

In some your quests to be right all the time, you read wrongness into others posts. this is to many.

back leg drivers... shees.

Hyp, you do not believe in seperation, in the turning hips and shoulders?? You believe in a gated swing, where the upper and lower are locked together?

Separation between the shoulders and turning hips create an around swing

Click to expand...

After observing the thread and looking at these videos I have a hopefully related question and if this is too derailing maybe we could just start a new thread.

Looking at Cabrerra's swing, if you were coaching him and did not know that he was the best hitter in baseball last season would you be looking for more separation? It just seems like even compared to other MLB players his hands stay almost within the frame of his body and is about as compact of a swing as I remember seeing after looking at lots of swings on video lately.

Also more in line with the discussion I guess I'm trying to figure out exactly where the difference in the two approaches are:

I don't want to rehash the arguments but simply want to understand the two approaches and make sure I'm not misunderstanding something.

Sounds like everyone agrees/understands that there is loading/coiling taking place before toe touch the first question would be is toe touch where all loading/coiling should be complete, in other words no more negative action of the lower half at or after toe touch or does negative action not stop until heel plant?

then I guess the next question that gets to this point about separation is whenever the hips begin there movement forward do the hands stay back or come with? I think this is where the different approaches come in but just want to make sure I understand the two schools of thought.

1 Shift and swing would be the hands and hips coming forward at the same time
2. Shift then swing would be leaving the hands back as the hip come forward then swinging

again not looking to do this discussion all over again just want to make sure I understand what you guys are discussing.

David, not getting into the whole thing just because I am on my phone...when I get home tonight I can include more.

Shift is weight shift. It is not the same as separation (hands back hip forward). So if you look at the gifs on page 3...the hitter in the shorts (Macia) has shifted most of his weight to his front foot, then he swings. That is SHIFT THEN SWING. Kemp, Cabreara, Posey, are shifting their weight with their swing, as they swing their weight comes forward. That is SHIFT AND SWING.