Thread: How the elbows work

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

LD ... you are correct about the swing ... but he the kid was a work in progress and hence the lesson he was receiving.

Thank you. That makes sense. This student was someone working towards that instructors goals not demonstrating the instructors end product swing. I do notice a nice brief moment of what appears to be ER as this student begins his swing.

Originally Posted by Wellphyt

Sorry if this stuff is boring to some people. I promise I will get to my main point soon...and why the subject of how the elbows work is worth exploring.

See, in this clip, I don't believe there's any ER of the rear arm. Because the rear arm is maintaining its position relative to the torso. The torso's rotation is moving the hands forward, and the elbow is being "done to" by the hands, wrists, and forearms. It isn't "doing", if that makes sense.

Take note of what is happening as the elbow begins to be lowered .....

Originally Posted by pstein

See, in this clip, I don't believe there's any ER of the rear arm. Because the rear arm is maintaining its position relative to the torso. The torso's rotation is moving the hands forward, and the elbow is being "done to" by the hands, wrists, and forearms. It isn't "doing", if that makes sense.

Pstein ... IMO, the ER in this clip is quite short ... and confined to the frames below.

I received a PM from someone I consider to be a knowledgeable hitting instructor. I believe he summarizes things quite nicely. Below is a duplication of the content, with some minor edits made to avoid ruffling feathers.

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

Take note of what is happening as the elbow begins to be lowered .....

ER of the humerus, when the humerus is adducting, is what allows the hitter's hands to raise. The greater (and earlier) the ER, the greater the raise of the hands.

If a player only adducts the humerus without any ER, the hands will simply remain in their starting location, or possibly lower slightly, depending on the individual hitter's handset.

This is why some people think Mantle "kept his hands very quiet" and incorrectly believe it's because his "back elbow doesn't raise up", instead of noticing that it's because Mickey has very little ER of the humerus, but a very noticeable amount of scapular retraction...



....he takes his hands more "back", than "up".

It amazes me that after nine pages of posts, not one person has been able to see how the various amounts of ER and adduction of the humerus, and scapular retraction, effect the movement or lack there of of the hands ....or if they did, not point it out for whatever reason.

Here is what I said about Mantle having quiet hands:

"This is one of my favorite all time clips because of how Mantle kept his hands very quiet when he picked up his front leg. No hand pump or hitch. Instead he starts to flatten as soon as he begins to stride. Notice how his back elbow doesn't raise up as he strides. Very interesting style."

The quite hands comment was in reference to there being no hand pump or hitch when he picks up his front leg...PERIOD.

The comment about his back elbow not raising was in reference to his unusual style. Most hitters raise their rear elbow as they stride. Nowhere did I say that I believed his hands were quiet due to his back elbow not raising up.

I use the overhand throw as a model. Do you really think I don't see the scapula retraction in good swings? Do you really think I don't understand how the scaps pinch when the hands break in the overhand throw? Do you really think I don't understand how the scap pinch in throwing relates to hitting? Do you really think I haven't picked up a bat and duplicated Mantle's hand action?

What I believe for certain is that Mantle didn't flatten his barrel from 90 degrees to 45 degrees by retracting his scap. And he didn't flatten from 90 degrees to 45 degrees using just Adduction.

Lots of hitting experts on these boards have been talking about the scaps for years. Not me. Jbooth explains below better than I can:

"The scap moves in relation to the hand movement by the arms. Teach hand and arm movement. I hardly ever even say the word "scaps" when I teach. I talk about hand, arm and elbow position. The scap will go where it must when you set and move your arms and hands." --Jbooth


Agree that ER of the humerus, when the humerus is adducting, is what allows the hitter's hands to raise. That's pretty obvious for those who understand the overhand throw. Glad someone else sees ER present during the slotting process.

Agree that if there is no ER of the humerus, the hands will either remain in their starting location, or lower. Most will lower and move their hands towards the pitcher because they are taught that their elbows work together. They are taught that the front elbow works up a ramp as the back elbow lowers. That action results in an early push. The important point is that if ER is removed; the barrel will not point behind the hitter. Note the position of the shaft to the deltoid when this clip pauses:



More later...