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EJL · 07-20-2008, 04:53 PM

I have read each of the replies and considered them. Let me say, if I wasn't clear in the OP, the girls I'm talking about all play varsity ball. I'm not talking about 10-12 year olds.

We had our state tournament here in Iowa this weekend. Our team made it to state for the first time in 15 years and only the second time ever. While watching every game that I could at all of the various levels, I saw this play used numerous times, all without challenge. Some of the best teams in Iowa used this play, and as I said, all without challenge.

Now, if I have a team at the state high school finals I'm going to use whatever tools I have in my toolbox in order to win. Time for teaching is over at that point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps in your areas you don't see this play because it is well defended. That simply is not the case here in Iowa. I will continue to use this play for the travel teams I coach until a team takes it from us.

Ed

bigdaddy · 07-20-2008, 07:15 PM

Ed,

Your OP was self-explanatory. We get it. As you stated, it's probably regional. As more teams get beat by this play, more coaches will teach the plays that defend against it and it will go away in Iowa like it has in other areas. Here in Tennessee, the play hasn't gone away, it just doesn't work against good teams as young as 12U. My DD's team would be upset if they only got one out on this play. Her team is a second year 12U squad.

Keith

shockcoach · 07-29-2008, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachB25

We defend this play easily and to be honest no one has scored on us attempting what you suggest. When that runner starts, the ball is in the circle. We have the pitcher receive the ball deep and look the runner at 3rd. In the mean time the runner on 1st is advancing and right in the middle of the basepath is our 2nd baseman. The pitcher fires the ball to the 2b who tags the runner and throws home. We won a championship game this past weekend where a team tried this 3 times. I couldn't believe that they were giving us outs with runners in scoring position. However, we were more than glad to take them.

This is exactly the way I coach to defend against the continuation play, and it's easy to get 2 outs from it. However, we rarely saw it this year at the 12U level. Not surprisingly, it was the weaker teams attempting it. As slugger mentioned, it's much more fun to play the short game and take the base on the next pitch.

ArmWhip · 07-30-2008, 09:28 PM

Throwing the ball to the 1st baseman won't work against good teams because they will wait and take second when the first baseman throws back to the pitcher. Having the pitcher throw to the 2nd baseman will only work if the runner is not alert, a good runner who has been coached on this play will stop in the base path and start to retreat to 1st. I have seen teams play catch between the pitcher and the second baseman as the runner advances and then retreats back to 1st. Teams at higher levels will eventually not try this play because a 2nd baseman or 1st baseman with a good arm will gun the runner down at home every time unless she is very fast and often they will get the runner from 1st in the process. Why give them the chance for an out, play the percentages, stay at first and steal on the next pitch, it's much harder to throw out the runner at home from 2nd base. However at the lower levels if it works, use it.

shockcoach · 07-31-2008, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmWhip

Having the pitcher throw to the 2nd baseman will only work if the runner is not alert, a good runner who has been coached on this play will stop in the base path and start to retreat to 1st.

I disagree. This is a timing play on the pitcher's part that is easily executed when practiced. The catcher needs to immediately get the ball back the pitcher to force R3 to either commit to home or retreat to 3rd. F4 is about 20' from 2nd base, towards 1st. If the BR rounds 1st and heads to 2nd, then the pitcher times her throw to F4 so that runner does not have time to stop and retreat to 1st. The tag is immediately applied and the ball is thrown to home to get R3 if she's attempting to steal.

I do agree that continuation stops against well schooled 12U teams and at the 14U level.

JoeA1010 · 10-25-2008, 08:50 AM

We actually practiced defensively for this play this fall (D3 college). I am new here, but our players told me that teams sometimes try this play on offense. I sure hope they do, as we'll gladly take the easy out(s). I never try this play on offense, as it's just not good strategy. Even at the younger ages, the defense will give you second on the first pitch after the walk almost every time, so why give them an opportunity for an easy out? This is especially true with no outs. If I am coaching a 12-U team and the offense does this with no outs, I'll just take the out and give up the run most of the time. The only way I wouldn't is if I had a big strikeout pitcher.

Below is what I gave to my coaches when I was running a travel organization....

I often see teams have a runner continue on to second base after a walk with no outs when a runner is on third. Why do they do this?

Under most circumstances with no outs, this is pure stupidity if the defensive team's coach has any idea what he's doing. A girl on third with no outs normally has an 75-90 percent chance of scoring during the inning, anyway, so why give up your runner who just walked, assuming the defense is smart enough to take the free out?

Also, why not just wait until the next pitch when most teams will just give the runner second base, instead of having her run to second when the ball is in the pitcher's hand and she is prone to being thrown out easily? Almost all of the time if a team tries this silly play, we'll take the free out and give them the run (unless that run absolutely CANNOT score), and even then often they're not expecting it and the run doesn't score or we get a double play. And this is even though I have pitchers who are very capable of getting out of the inning unscathed. Unless two great pitchers are going, most games come down to one team having a multiple-run inning. If a team is determined to take itself out of a big inning, oblige that team. I can't count how many games where I watched teams on defense just give the runner second base after the walk, and inevitably that runner who reached second would almost always later score. This not only allows that runner who just walked to likely score, but it also gives the other team an extra out to work with, which often leads to even more runs.

I never send the runner to second on the walk. The only way I'd do that is if I had the winning run on third and I had a reason to believe that the defense would try to get the girl who just walked and who is now heading toward second in a rundown, and that they wouldn't throw down to second on the next pitch if we had kept the runner at first and just had her do a delayed steal.

But I repeat, I never send the runner who just walked on to second. The only advantage would be if you know for certain the defense is going to give her second and you then don't have to give your next batter a take sign on the first pitch while you steal second, thus risking putting the batter in a 0-1 hole.

There is literally no way to keep an offensive team from creating a rundown situation if it is determined to do so in this situation.

This is why as a defense, you must determine a pitch or two before the walk whether you want to trade the run (or possible run) for the out. If you want to trade it, just throw it back to the pitcher who can then throw it to the shortstop at the base or the second baseman in the line for the out. I prefer having the pitcher hold on to the ball and make it look like we are not going to take the out, and then throw to the shortstop covering second in plenty of time to get the runner, who will usually blindly run right into the out without even looking for the ball, thinking by then that the defense is giving her second. What also often happens is that the runner on third is frozen, in shock that the defense actually tried to get an out, and does not score. I also prefer getting the ball first to the pitcher because the person who walked now thinks we're not going to get her out and will often walk right into the tag, leaving the runner on third no time to do anything. If the second baseman is holding the ball waiting on the runner, that runner will take a few steps off of first waiting for the rundown. You can't just run her back to first, because as soon as the ball is thrown to the pitcher, she'll take right back off for second. As I stated, there is no possible way to prevent the offense from forcing a rundown if it is determined to have one. You would need two softballs on the field.

On offense, if you are going to use this silly play, your runner who just walked HAS to know that she has to watch the ball the whole time and be prepared to get into a rundown if necessary. Most girls are taught from 7 years old to just put their head down and run. This is horrible coaching.

Also on defense, your shortstop or second baseman needs to practice running a girl back to first and then turning and throwing home. If they can do this and you want to bait the offense into this play, you can often get the runner on third into a rundown. I'll do this often with one out, or with none out in what might be a low-scoring game.

Sean Hall · 10-28-2008, 08:00 PM

EJL,

Hey, if this is a play that has worked for you then keep using it! I do agree with a lot of the posters that say it doesn't work as often at the higher levels. However, if I were you I would keep using it until someone stops it. I would NEVER use this play with nobody out. It is too tempting for the other team to just sacrifice the run and get the out. You then would have scored this run but lost the chance at a big inning.

I like this type of play more after a batted ball where the runner just makes it to 3B and the batter/runner is on 1B. A lot of times I would then send the runner to 2B and hope I catch them by suprise.

P.S I know Iowa has some very good softball!

Good Luck!
Sean Hall
Minnesota Sting Elite
North St. Paul Head Varsity Coach

07-20-2008, 04:53 PM	#21 (permalink)
EJL Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Emmetsburg, Ia Posts: 14	Perhaps it's a regional thing? I have read each of the replies and considered them. Let me say, if I wasn't clear in the OP, the girls I'm talking about all play varsity ball. I'm not talking about 10-12 year olds. We had our state tournament here in Iowa this weekend. Our team made it to state for the first time in 15 years and only the second time ever. While watching every game that I could at all of the various levels, I saw this play used numerous times, all without challenge. Some of the best teams in Iowa used this play, and as I said, all without challenge. Now, if I have a team at the state high school finals I'm going to use whatever tools I have in my toolbox in order to win. Time for teaching is over at that point. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps in your areas you don't see this play because it is well defended. That simply is not the case here in Iowa. I will continue to use this play for the travel teams I coach until a team takes it from us. Ed

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07-20-2008, 07:15 PM	#22 (permalink)
bigdaddy Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 107	Ed, Your OP was self-explanatory. We get it. As you stated, it's probably regional. As more teams get beat by this play, more coaches will teach the plays that defend against it and it will go away in Iowa like it has in other areas. Here in Tennessee, the play hasn't gone away, it just doesn't work against good teams as young as 12U. My DD's team would be upset if they only got one out on this play. Her team is a second year 12U squad. Keith

07-30-2008, 09:28 PM	#24 (permalink)
ArmWhip Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Eastern Long Island Posts: 47	Throwing the ball to the 1st baseman won't work against good teams because they will wait and take second when the first baseman throws back to the pitcher. Having the pitcher throw to the 2nd baseman will only work if the runner is not alert, a good runner who has been coached on this play will stop in the base path and start to retreat to 1st. I have seen teams play catch between the pitcher and the second baseman as the runner advances and then retreats back to 1st. Teams at higher levels will eventually not try this play because a 2nd baseman or 1st baseman with a good arm will gun the runner down at home every time unless she is very fast and often they will get the runner from 1st in the process. Why give them the chance for an out, play the percentages, stay at first and steal on the next pitch, it's much harder to throw out the runner at home from 2nd base. However at the lower levels if it works, use it.

10-25-2008, 08:50 AM	#26 (permalink)
JoeA1010 Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 7	We actually practiced defensively for this play this fall (D3 college). I am new here, but our players told me that teams sometimes try this play on offense. I sure hope they do, as we'll gladly take the easy out(s). I never try this play on offense, as it's just not good strategy. Even at the younger ages, the defense will give you second on the first pitch after the walk almost every time, so why give them an opportunity for an easy out? This is especially true with no outs. If I am coaching a 12-U team and the offense does this with no outs, I'll just take the out and give up the run most of the time. The only way I wouldn't is if I had a big strikeout pitcher. Below is what I gave to my coaches when I was running a travel organization.... I often see teams have a runner continue on to second base after a walk with no outs when a runner is on third. Why do they do this? Under most circumstances with no outs, this is pure stupidity if the defensive team's coach has any idea what he's doing. A girl on third with no outs normally has an 75-90 percent chance of scoring during the inning, anyway, so why give up your runner who just walked, assuming the defense is smart enough to take the free out? Also, why not just wait until the next pitch when most teams will just give the runner second base, instead of having her run to second when the ball is in the pitcher's hand and she is prone to being thrown out easily? Almost all of the time if a team tries this silly play, we'll take the free out and give them the run (unless that run absolutely CANNOT score), and even then often they're not expecting it and the run doesn't score or we get a double play. And this is even though I have pitchers who are very capable of getting out of the inning unscathed. Unless two great pitchers are going, most games come down to one team having a multiple-run inning. If a team is determined to take itself out of a big inning, oblige that team. I can't count how many games where I watched teams on defense just give the runner second base after the walk, and inevitably that runner who reached second would almost always later score. This not only allows that runner who just walked to likely score, but it also gives the other team an extra out to work with, which often leads to even more runs. I never send the runner to second on the walk. The only way I'd do that is if I had the winning run on third and I had a reason to believe that the defense would try to get the girl who just walked and who is now heading toward second in a rundown, and that they wouldn't throw down to second on the next pitch if we had kept the runner at first and just had her do a delayed steal. But I repeat, I never send the runner who just walked on to second. The only advantage would be if you know for certain the defense is going to give her second and you then don't have to give your next batter a take sign on the first pitch while you steal second, thus risking putting the batter in a 0-1 hole. There is literally no way to keep an offensive team from creating a rundown situation if it is determined to do so in this situation. This is why as a defense, you must determine a pitch or two before the walk whether you want to trade the run (or possible run) for the out. If you want to trade it, just throw it back to the pitcher who can then throw it to the shortstop at the base or the second baseman in the line for the out. I prefer having the pitcher hold on to the ball and make it look like we are not going to take the out, and then throw to the shortstop covering second in plenty of time to get the runner, who will usually blindly run right into the out without even looking for the ball, thinking by then that the defense is giving her second. What also often happens is that the runner on third is frozen, in shock that the defense actually tried to get an out, and does not score. I also prefer getting the ball first to the pitcher because the person who walked now thinks we're not going to get her out and will often walk right into the tag, leaving the runner on third no time to do anything. If the second baseman is holding the ball waiting on the runner, that runner will take a few steps off of first waiting for the rundown. You can't just run her back to first, because as soon as the ball is thrown to the pitcher, she'll take right back off for second. As I stated, there is no possible way to prevent the offense from forcing a rundown if it is determined to have one. You would need two softballs on the field. On offense, if you are going to use this silly play, your runner who just walked HAS to know that she has to watch the ball the whole time and be prepared to get into a rundown if necessary. Most girls are taught from 7 years old to just put their head down and run. This is horrible coaching. Also on defense, your shortstop or second baseman needs to practice running a girl back to first and then turning and throwing home. If they can do this and you want to bait the offense into this play, you can often get the runner on third into a rundown. I'll do this often with one out, or with none out in what might be a low-scoring game.

10-28-2008, 08:00 PM	#27 (permalink)
Sean Hall Sean Hall Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Somerset, Wisconsin Posts: 5	EJL, Hey, if this is a play that has worked for you then keep using it! I do agree with a lot of the posters that say it doesn't work as often at the higher levels. However, if I were you I would keep using it until someone stops it. I would NEVER use this play with nobody out. It is too tempting for the other team to just sacrifice the run and get the out. You then would have scored this run but lost the chance at a big inning. I like this type of play more after a batted ball where the runner just makes it to 3B and the batter/runner is on 1B. A lot of times I would then send the runner to 2B and hope I catch them by suprise. P.S I know Iowa has some very good softball! Good Luck! Sean Hall Minnesota Sting Elite North St. Paul Head Varsity Coach