Playing Down

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Sep 3, 2015
14
0
I was not judging them. I was just wondering what reasons there would be for it. I think each teams situation is different and you can't paint all teams with a broad brush. I think what ever is beneficial for their development is what you should do. No judgment needed.
 
Jan 31, 2011
453
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You make some valid points, CoogansBluff . Unfortunately, the organizational bodies make Jan 1st the delineation date. Not Aug 1st. from what I have experienced with ASA & USSSA. So, nothing is technically wrong with playing down in the fall. There is just something about it that makes me mad from prior experiences of teams playing down to kick younger teams' butts.

For the teams I have coached, we have try-outs in early Aug, practice like crazy, then hit our first tourney in late Aug or early Sept. I want to see how we match up, how we compete with other good teams. I need to know what we are missing. Playing down seems opposite of that plan.

Or what if you're a A team that goes 16-4 this fall in 12U. Shouldn't you be playing 14U? You do want to be good at 14U, right? So why not go ahead and get used to it? Isn't what you're asking these weak 10U teams to do, the ones that stay down?
And yes, playing "up" a division is appropriate if you can evaluate your talent objectively and decide if that is where they need to play to improve. After 12U, nothing about the game changes except the speed. Why not challenge your kids?

Playing down seems just wrong. If you are a 2nd year 12U team and decide to stay down in the fall. You will play 10U teams moving up. So, that is where it bugs me the most. Here is an example (not your team from what you said, just what I have seen). Instead of a team taking it's lumps as a younger 14U, they deliver a whalloping on a 10U team just moving up to 40 ft and the 12" ball. Everyone "high-fives" each other with the domination. Then that team goes on to "win" the tourney undefeated scoring a gazillion runs (cause thats how they roll) and give up ZERO. They grab the hardware, pictures all over Facebook, and everyone (parents) thinks they are world-beaters. However, next spring rolls around and reality sets in when your first opponent, a team down the road, took their lumps in the fall. That team learned from the losses, experienced a faster game, and used the info to get better. They faced faster pitching, saw more athletic kids, and set the stage for winter practices...

Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but not too far from some coach's plan in for fall ball.
 
Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
I was not judging them. I was just wondering what reasons there would be for it. I think each teams situation is different and you can't paint all teams with a broad brush. I think what ever is beneficial for their development is what you should do. No judgment needed.

Didn't mean to imply that you were judging, just that teams in those situations do get judged.

Playing down seems just wrong.

Yes, it does seem wrong. But are we too caught up in age divisions? What if there were no age divisions, just skill levels? Then if you go 10-10, nobody questions it. Good job picking your skill level. But if you go 10-10 when you could've moved up, then it becomes wrong.

I agree that if the purpose is to win trophies, then it becomes questionable. Also, I've never coached a team that stayed back. When I coached, it was in Georgia where school ball is in the fall. I hardly ever saw teams staying back there because the school season made for a clear break between summer and fall. But in North Carolina and most states, school ball is in spring, and so you have more teams playing straight through summer/fall and making that decision - Do we move on up, or maybe stay down and actually win a few games if we're inexperienced and struggling.
 
Aug 3, 2016
70
18
So let's say that I have a team that must move up on Jan. 1, but I choose to delay that graduation, and my 10U team then goes 10-10 that fall. They get a little more confidence, and they get a few more games than they would've in 12U tournaments where they're likely to go three-and-out. Sounds like a plan. Second-year 12U teams play first-year 12U teams in the summer. How is that so different than lower-level 10U teams that stay back 3-4 months?

Well congratulations to the 11 year olds beating up on a bunch 9 year olds who just moved up from 8u. Let their parents bask in the glory of a 12 run game on only two hits because the pitcher can't throw a strike and the catcher can't hold on to the ball. Let them cheer loudly as the runners advance and score on wild pitch after wild pitch. Try and run-rule them quickly though, the team needs to be well rested for the championship game.

If any of my girls are playing 10u ball next fall, then I have failed as a coach. I laugh at the organizations who stay back in the fall. Everyone can see what they are doing, except for the naive parents who are paying their monthly dues and think their girls are actually on a competitive team. At least in the Summer those families will have their Sunday afternoons free. Fall is the season to struggle.
 
Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
Well congratulations to the 11 year olds beating up on a bunch 9 year olds who just moved up from 8u. Let their parents bask in the glory of a 12 run game on only two hits because the pitcher can't throw a strike and the catcher can't hold on to the ball. Let them cheer loudly as the runners advance and score on wild pitch after wild pitch. Try and run-rule them quickly though, the team needs to be well rested for the championship game.

No one in this thread has advocated for playing down to clobber teams that are two years younger, so this isn't relevent.

If any of my girls are playing 10u ball next fall, then I have failed as a coach. I laugh at the organizations who stay back in the fall. Everyone can see what they are doing, except for the naive parents who are paying their monthly dues and think their girls are actually on a competitive team. At least in the Summer those families will have their Sunday afternoons free. Fall is the season to struggle.

You didn't answer my question, of how it's different. You just made judgments and assumptions about why a team might delay moving up.

One assumption is that they're trophy-hunting and will be playing teams 2 years younger. In fact, they might be playing other teams that have delayed moving up, and a few more advanced teams that are only 1 year younger and might still beat them.

Please note that in 4 seasons as a head coach (none the past 4 years), I never delayed moving up. Am only saying that I'm not automatically judging or looking down on teams that do.

As a second-year 10U team this past summer, you played some 9U teams. Then why is it so terrible for an inexperienced 11U to play a 10U for 3 months?
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
You didn't answer my question, of how it's different. You just made judgments and assumptions about why a team might delay moving up.

I advised a 12U team to delay moving up this season to 14U and to wait until they had to on Jan 1st. They were 2-38 last season and got their butts-kicked game after game. When you give up 30+ run-rule losses, what exactly is moving up going to do for them?
A few years ago these girls would have just gone back to rec league, but with a lot of rec leagues drying up especially in older age divisions it is hard for older girls who just want to play to find a place to do so. Travel has had to accommodate more and more rec-like teams because there has to be places for these kids to play or they will be lost to something else.

They made a good decision and stayed down. Right now they are 9-19 and have only been run-ruled twice. It is the perfect scenario to stay down so they can compete. They aren't winning tournaments. They aren't killing anyone. They are playing meaningful games every time they go out to play which had not been the case for the past year.


If they had moved up age groups I am 100% sure they would be 0-30 or similar. Or would have just given up. They are playing softball and competing - and to me that is a major success.
 
May 13, 2012
599
18
I have to go coogansbluff on this. IF I could move up but stayed down and finished In the middle or upper half of the field then I made the right decesion. If I run into a weaker team that's playing up and run rule them with #1 in the circle and all starters in their primary postion then I failed my team by not getting 2 and 3 in the circle and others playing time on the field or secondary postions. If I run rule everyone but the championship game I failed by not challenging my team against better competition. Im not going to play up if there is no benifits nor play down with no benifits. This summer we never won a tourny, short of winning season game wise but finished pretty much middle of field each tourny, so for us I feel like we played where we should have. Big showcase we played 16u, local tourny 18u.
 
Jan 31, 2011
453
43
Well congratulations to the 11 year olds beating up on a bunch 9 year olds who just moved up from 8u. Let their parents bask in the glory of a 12 run game on only two hits because the pitcher can't throw a strike and the catcher can't hold on to the ball. Let them cheer loudly as the runners advance and score on wild pitch after wild pitch. Try and run-rule them quickly though, the team needs to be well rested for the championship game.

If any of my girls are playing 10u ball next fall, then I have failed as a coach. I laugh at the organizations who stay back in the fall. Everyone can see what they are doing, except for the naive parents who are paying their monthly dues and think their girls are actually on a competitive team. At least in the Summer those families will have their Sunday afternoons free. Fall is the season to struggle.


I have to say I laughed at this post. So many teams play down for certain "reasons" that don't coincide with what CoogansBluff is saying. I get the reason to play at your level & partially agree with the OP after really reading it. However, the younger teams you're competing against don't see it that way...
 
Aug 3, 2016
70
18
CoogansBluff, I probably shouldn't have quoted you because my post isn't really a direct response to yours. I don't think anybody cares if a girl or a team stays back in the Fall if they are "just another team" (goes 2-1 in pool play and then wins a game on Sunday). That's not the issue and frankly nobody really cares or even notices since Fall tournaments seldom require a roster to be submitted. It's the 10u coach that claims most of his girls are 06 (except his pitcher, catcher, firstbase, short stop, and a couple of outfielders) that roll into to the semi-finals or finals at every tournament that is the issue.

The OP asked why an 11u team would stay back and play 10u ball in the Fall. You gave a very valid reason for a coach to keep playing 10u ball. I gave a very invalid reason for a coach to keep playing 10u ball.
 
Sep 28, 2015
85
0
I hear a lot of mixed feelings some are understandable if you have you 2nd or 3rd pitcher in and rotating girls, but what about when your in a 8u tournament this fall and your playing a team who has nothing but 07 girls and still playing 8u in fall but have to be in 10u in spring. What's the point there?
 

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