Scoring question..Triple or error?

CoogansBluff · May 17, 2016

PlayPerfect said:
The ball was misplayed and that misplay allowed her to get to first safely.

This is where I believe the rules should be clearer and say 'physical' misplay and not just misplay, which is a broad term.

I don't know if NFHS rules are different, but here are NCAA rules for softball and baseball -

NO ERROR IS CHARGED
SECTION 22. No error is charged to a fielder in the following situations:
g. When a fly ball is misjudged and the fielder cannot recover in time to make the play

IMO, in the can-o-corn example, it comes down to whether the player missed a ball because she misjudged it, or because she was there to make the play and just missed it.

smddad · May 17, 2016

It's a triple.

CoogansBluff · May 17, 2016

For the most part, 'ordinary effort' is not about the player's journey to the ball. Scorekeepers are not to judge defensive range or tracking skills or decision-making or hustle.

Rather, they judge the moment the ball must be fielded. They judge the acts of catching and throwing, stripped down to their most basic form. Could she have caught it with ordinary effort - at the moment of truth?

In the case of the OP, no, because she had misjudged it. The ball was over her head at that point. The train had done run. Triple.

That might not be a 'fair' ruling, but it's the one that follows the rules of scoring, IMO.

If you are allowed to call that an error, then scorekeepers are then forced to make many more subjective decisions - Did she hustle? Did she make a good break on the ball? Do I give her an error because she's the slowest player in the league and just couldn't get there? The more subjective it is, the more inconsistent scorekeepers will be from one to another, and the less that statistics will mean.

Make it simple - At the moment of truth, could she catch it? Did she catch it?

PlayPerfect · May 17, 2016

CoogansBluff said:
For the most part, 'ordinary effort' is not about the player's journey to the ball. Scorekeepers are not to judge defensive range or tracking skills or decision-making or hustle.

Rather, they judge the moment the ball must be fielded. They judge the acts of catching and throwing, stripped down to their most basic form. Could she have caught it with ordinary effort - at the moment of truth?

In the case of the OP, no, because she had misjudged it. The ball was over her head at that point. The train had done run. Triple.

That might not be a 'fair' ruling, but it's the one that follows the rules of scoring, IMO.

If you are allowed to call that an error, then scorekeepers are then forced to make many more subjective decisions - Did she hustle? Did she make a good break on the ball? Do I give her an error because she's the slowest player in the league and just couldn't get there? The more subjective it is, the more inconsistent scorekeepers will be from one to another, and the less that statistics will mean.

Make it simple - At the moment of truth, could she catch it? Did she catch it?

This is very compelling. Thank you.

softballdadof2 · May 17, 2016

who says it would be caught 92 times out of 100. i wouldn't assign an E for a mental mistake, or a misplay. triple imo

Strike2 · May 18, 2016

PlayPerfect said:
Bases empty, no outs. My batter hits a hard long line shot STRAIGHT at the CF. Its not knuckling, its spinning clean. CF doesn't have to move, it will hit her in the forehead. She opts to come in a few gentle strides and it soars over her glove by 12 inches. Runner stopped at third.

This is high school, second round of playoffs by two very decent teams. I did not scout the CF and do not know her skill level. The average high school centerfielder makes that catch and the batter is retired.

I gave it an E due to this definition of an error....NFHS rules...."An error is charged against a fielder for each misplay that..... prolongs the time a player has to be a runner, or permits a runner to advance one or more bases." Whereas a hit is credited "when a batter-runner advances to first safely because of a fair hit, rather than a fielder's error". Or should it be a triple because it was "hit so forcefully that the fielder couldn't handle it"?

I disagree with notion that a hit ball needs to be touched by a fielder to record an error. Opinions please?

YOUR player hits a hard liner to CF that's not caught and you want to give it an ERROR???

I bet you're a hit with your players.

PlayPerfect · May 19, 2016

Strike2 said:
YOUR player hits a hard liner to CF that's not caught and you want to give it an ERROR???

I bet you're a hit with your players.

You would win that bet. My players know when a routine liner to center should've been caught. I took your all's opinion and gave her the gift triple.

JAD · May 19, 2016

chinamigarden said:
Errors require some sort of physical mistake, not a mental mistake. Thats a triple every time, unless you are the pitchers parent in which case its an error.

Preach it brother! I would also like to point out that this is the reason it is difficult to compare pitchers by their ERAs. A good pitcher on a team with a great defense can easily have a lower ERA than a great pitcher with an average defense.....

Strike2 · May 19, 2016

PlayPerfect said:
You would win that bet. My players know when a routine liner to center should've been caught. I took your all's opinion and gave her the gift triple.

"Routine liner". First time I've seen these two words put together. Unlike the "can of corn" pop-fly, a liner to most places on the field is anything but "routine". As coaches, that's exactly what we want from our hitters...hit the ball hard. The "gift" is to the defense when that liner is hit directly at a player. Even then, it can take odd twists and turns; I know this from personal experience. I don't understand why some are so reluctant to give a batter credit for hitting a little round ball pitched at them at a high rate of speed. In this case, the ball was obviously hit HARD, and the result was good. Yet, some are agonizing over giving the hitter a "gift triple" off a hard line drive to CF.

Ken Krause · May 19, 2016

CoogansBluff said:
For the most part, 'ordinary effort' is not about the player's journey to the ball. Scorekeepers are not to judge defensive range or tracking skills or decision-making or hustle.

Rather, they judge the moment the ball must be fielded. They judge the acts of catching and throwing, stripped down to their most basic form. Could she have caught it with ordinary effort - at the moment of truth?

In the case of the OP, no, because she had misjudged it. The ball was over her head at that point. The train had done run. Triple.

That might not be a 'fair' ruling, but it's the one that follows the rules of scoring, IMO.

If you are allowed to call that an error, then scorekeepers are then forced to make many more subjective decisions - Did she hustle? Did she make a good break on the ball? Do I give her an error because she's the slowest player in the league and just couldn't get there? The more subjective it is, the more inconsistent scorekeepers will be from one to another, and the less that statistics will mean.

Make it simple - At the moment of truth, could she catch it? Did she catch it?

This reminds me of an article I saw a few years ago talking about Derek Jeter and whether he deserved the Gold Glove at shortstop. The writer contended that Jeter didn't go after the tough plays that could cause him to be charged with an error like some other shortstops in the running. Instead, he'd let them get through cleanly. I personally never really watched the Yankees so couldn't say. But I know that writer wasn't alone in that assessment.

Scoring question..Triple or error?

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