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Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,881
113
I think this topic is so much more complicated than some of realize. At least in the collegiate setting. For some of you, your dd will go to a school where she might be odd man out for whichever "group" predominates a collegiate team. Then, there are the road trips where 3 and 4 players are expected to share a room. There is the issue of some seeking to become transgender. If you are fortunate, your dd will end up in a program where everyone is welcomed and treated equally. For some, your dd will ask to transfer and will give you ever reason but the real reason. For some of you, you might not know how your dd identifies although I'm sure you think you do. Again, this is a very complicated issue. I'm not at liberty to say much more but do know that for the players/dds this can be a very traumatic experience regardless of how they identify.
 
Nov 18, 2013
2,258
113
"
You're right to ask for clarity. We've all seen people play the "I care" card as a way to justify acting out of their personal motives. What I mean is don't judge the value of a person based on what he or she believes, chooses, or claims to be or not be. This has to be genuine, and it has to be evident in the team environment.

I'm a pastor by trade (and I promise this isn't going to get religious or moralistic, but it's the only context I have to answer you). Too many times I've walked with people who are struggling with this issue. It's the hardest thing I've dealt with in a church. No matter what people believe about this, if it ever becomes personal, people involved will experience and express fear, anger, sadness, isolation, accusation, failure, and more. That's everybody involved. It doesn't matter what one's belief is, or what "side" they claim. Everybody feels pain. These are circumstances that can tear churches and families apart. In my experience you have one chance to hold things together: care about everybody, and help everybody know they matter. Before anything else, you have to care and people have to know it. Otherwise they won't trust you to help them. Don't underestimate the power of simple caring. It has helped me hold a church together more than once.

Everybody matters, and everybody deserves to know it. I think that's as important for coaching a team as it is for leading a church. I try to cultivate this between the players - and their families too - as much as I try to live by it myself.

Lots of issues come up with teams. Truly caring about a team and its players doesn't mean I will handle a situation well, and it doesn't mean something won't blow up in my face. But if I don't care, I don't have a chance. Right now I can't think of anything that could be as potentially divisive to a team as what the OP raises. I hope I never have to face that one with a team. I'm certainly not going to go looking for it. Honestly, I just want to play ball.

I've seen drama with girls and the ever changing "BFF's" or the "mean girl" clique's. Neither are exclusive to lesbians. This is only an issue if you're Kim Davis.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
I've been involved in softball for a long, long time. Society has changed quite a bit. Same sex partners are not as big of an issue in 2015 at it was in 1985. The kids and society are different today.

Here are the issues that come up:

1) One girl wants to be paired with one other girl all the time.
2) One girl wants to share the room on overnights only with one other girl.
3) One girl wants to "sabotage" the play of another girl for various reasons--sometimes to "help" another girl, sometimes to "hurt" a girl.
4) They show physical affection at inappropriate times.
5) A couple breakup during the season.

These issues are people issues, not sexual orientation issues.

So, you still need some clear rules:

1) No kissy facey, huggy body during team activities (i.e., no physical displays of affection during team activities).
2) Team activities are for the team. There is one clique on a team, and it is *THE TEAM*.
3) Team members participate in team activities. Pairing up for team activities is done randomly, not based on the personal preference of the girls.
4) The game is played the way the game is supposed to be played. If a player fails to make the correct play, no matter what the reason, the player can be benched.

Rule (1) is a simple, common sense rule. It is the same rule that exists for mixed sex groups such as marching band, choir, and the Math Club.

Rules (2), (3) and (4) are common and aren't any different than normal team rules.

The biggest problems occur when a couple breaks up (heaven help you if another teammate is involved in the breakup). The emotions can carry over to the team, and that can be extremely disruptive. (Again, this is not a sexual orientation issue...it is a human issue.)

There is simply no good way to deal with a breakup between teammates. You have immature kids dealing with gut wrenching emotions. It never turns out well. Someone almost always leaves the team.

Ray
 
Last edited:
Nov 18, 2013
2,258
113
I've been involved in softball for a long, long time. Society has changed quite a bit. Same sex partners are not as big of an issue in 2015 at it was in 1985. The kids and society are different today.

Here are the issues that come up:

1) One girl wants to be paired with one other girl all the time.
2) One girl wants to share the room on overnights only with one other girl.
3) One girl wants to "sabotage" the play of another girl for various reasons--sometimes to "help" another girl, sometimes to "hurt" a girl.
4) They show physical affection at inappropriate times.
5) A couple breakup during the season.

These issues are people issues, not sexual orientation issues.

So, you still need some clear rules:

1) No kissy facey, huggy body during team activities (i.e., no physical displays of affection during team activities).
2) Team activities are for the team. There is one clique on a team, and it is *THE TEAM*.
3) Team members participate in team activities. Pairing up for team activities is done randomly, not based on the personal preference of the girls.
4) The game is played the way the game is supposed to be played. If a player fails to make the correct play, no matter what the reason, the player can be benched.

Rule (1) is a simple, common sense rule. It is the same rule that exists for mixed sex groups such as marching band, choir, and the Math Club.

Rules (2), (3) and (4) are common and aren't any different than normal team rules.

The biggest problems occur when a couple breaks up (heaven help you if another teammate is involved in the breakup). The emotions can carry over to the team, and that can be extremely disruptive. (Again, this is not a sexual orientation issue...it is a human issue.)

There is simply no good way to deal with a breakup between teammates. You have immature kids dealing with gut wrenching emotions. It never turns out well. Someone almost always leaves the team.

Ray

Re: Break ups. We'd see similiar issues if a girl dated a teammates brother, cousin, former boy friend etc. I completely agree it's a human issue.
 
Jul 19, 2014
2,390
48
Madison, WI
Definitely a human issue.
DS was on a coed HS rowing program with several couples on the team and it never became an issue.
Now he is in an all male college program, except the coxswain are female. The coach warned us during recruitment that several rowers left the team over a rower/coxswain relationship and all the drama it caused.
 
Jul 19, 2014
2,390
48
Madison, WI
I think this topic is so much more complicated than some of realize. At least in the collegiate setting. For some of you, your dd will go to a school where she might be odd man out for whichever "group" predominates a collegiate team. Then, there are the road trips where 3 and 4 players are expected to share a room. There is the issue of some seeking to become transgender. If you are fortunate, your dd will end up in a program where everyone is welcomed and treated equally. For some, your dd will ask to transfer and will give you ever reason but the real reason. For some of you, you might not know how your dd identifies although I'm sure you think you do. Again, this is a very complicated issue. I'm not at liberty to say much more but do know that for the players/dds this can be a very traumatic experience regardless of how they identify.

From reading DFP I have come to realize just how important team dynamics are, and how much I had underestimated the problems. That and seeing some team dynamics problems in some of the team's my DDs played on, and their friends played on. Coaches as well as parents-- some sad stories about dynamics involving coaches' DDs hurting friendships among adults who had previously been very close.

DD 3 is a very accepting person. One of her closest friends is the DD of a lesbian couple, another of her best friends is the DD of a fundamentalist Christian minister. DD is not Chistian, but has defended her friend against anti-Christian comments.

I now know to look for teams where DD 3 can be accepted for who she is, and so far this has never been an issue. No team has ever made any of my kids feel bad about being non-white and non-Christian. Nor have any of my kids wound up on hard partying teams.

I really need to be careful to find teams that are as accepting of my kids as my kids are of others.
 
Jun 12, 2015
3,848
83
From reading DFP I have come to realize just how important team dynamics are, and how much I had underestimated the problems. That and seeing some team dynamics problems in some of the team's my DDs played on, and their friends played on. Coaches as well as parents-- some sad stories about dynamics involving coaches' DDs hurting friendships among adults who had previously been very close.

DD 3 is a very accepting person. One of her closest friends is the DD of a lesbian couple, another of her best friends is the DD of a fundamentalist Christian minister. DD is not Chistian, but has defended her friend against anti-Christian comments.

I now know to look for teams where DD 3 can be accepted for who she is, and so far this has never been an issue. No team has ever made any of my kids feel bad about being non-white and non-Christian. Nor have any of my kids wound up on hard partying teams.

I really need to be careful to find teams that are as accepting of my kids as my kids are of others.

I imagine this gets harder the older the girls get. Mine is 10U and so far our teams have been great. No problems. But we're non-religious and live deep in the bible belt. I worry that this will become an issue as the girls get older. Then again, maybe my DD will be religious even though we aren't. Anything's possible.
 
Jul 19, 2014
2,390
48
Madison, WI
I grew up non- religious in the Bible Belt, and it was an issue.
I had my own ways of dealing with it. Some semi- rebellious, such as reciting the original rather than the amended Pledge of Allegiance (keep silent during the words "under God"), mostly just respectfully bowing my head and staying silent during prayers. I also accepted invitations from Christian friends to some of their church events. I never pretended to be religious, but by showing respect for Christians I found most of them showed respect for me.

Most of them.

Some of the most devout Christian friends I have had are dismayed by the way certain "Christians" misuse a religion of peace understanding and inclusion to spread hate and bullying. In some cases non believers are bullied. As bad as it was for a non-believer from a Christian background, it can be worse for Jews and Muslims. My son and I used to take martial arts classes in Madison, WI. A Muslim black belt got started in the martial arts to survive the bullying he got in a rural community.

I would suggest having heart to heart talks with coaches of prospective tournament teams whenever your DD is looking for new teams. You need to be sure the team is a safe place for her. If you run across a coach who is dismissive of the challenges a non religious kid can have in the Bible Belt, cross that team off your list.
 

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