Value of bunting with second hitter

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
14U A-ball and above EVERY batter should be able to lay down a sacrifice bunt, and a sacrifice bunt is a MUST HAVE skill set when playing an ITB.

I'd like to see this explored and researched. I'm not disagreeing w/ you. But not enough information. A closer look might show the time-honored tradition of automatic bunt here is not that smart.

Note Buckeye's NCAA stats that show that a runner at 2nd w/ 0 outs yields more runs per inning (1.49) than runner at 3rd w/ 1 out (1.17). However, you might be a little less likely to score 1 run. In other words, no bunt means you're more likely to get 2, but also more likely to get 0. The bunt is safer to get 1.

My gut tells me that the bunt should be used in the ITB only when you feel that runs are hard to come by. I'd say it's overused at 14U and below.
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
I'd like to see this explored and researched. I'm not disagreeing w/ you. But not enough information. A closer look might show the time-honored tradition of automatic bunt here is not that smart.

Note Buckeye's NCAA stats that show that a runner at 2nd w/ 0 outs yields more runs per inning (1.49) than runner at 3rd w/ 1 out (1.17). However, you might be a little less likely to score 1 run. In other words, no bunt means you're more likely to get 2, but also more likely to get 0. The bunt is safer to get 1.

My gut tells me that the bunt should be used in the ITB only when you feel that runs are hard to come by. I'd say it's overused at 14U and below.

Different coaches have different philosophies, but if you are the visiting team you need to push at least one run across. A strikeout or pop fly does not move the runner, but if you have a good hitter who can move the runner without a SAC bunt, then maybe you take your chances.
 
Last edited:

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
On average it's your #2 hitter who comes up most often with runners on and fewer than 2 outs, so batting your highest wOBA here would be a good idea. But that's a straight numbers game, and coaching based on "gut" feeling or simple tradition can be just as effective. Heck, even if you used a straight Saber lineup in MLB, it's only worth about 2 wins over 162 games.

Regardless, even if you have a high OBP hitter at #2 you wouldn't sac bunt her, would you?

Typically our #2 hitter has good speed, so while she may not SAC bunt, she can bunt for a hit and force the defense to make a play. How many times have you seen a 3rd baseman airmail the throw over the 2nd baseman's head when she is covering 1B on a bunt? When the 5'-10" first baseman charges on a bunt and the 5'2" 2nd baseman is covering the bag, the margin for error is diminished.
 
Jul 16, 2008
1,520
48
Oregon
Different coaches have different philosophies, but if you are the visiting team you need to push at least one run across. A strikeout or pop fly does not move the runner, but if you have a good hitter who can move the runner with a SAC bunt, then maybe you take your chances.

I'm one of the bunt guys :) I would even go a bit further JAD, not just pop ups but any typical flyball isn't advancing the runner to 2nd, not to mention a DP ball... Straight Stealing in the upper levels is also a gamble, so I will take my 1 out runner on 2B... Oh yea 99.99% of the time we choose Visitors as well.
 
Jul 10, 2014
1,283
0
C-bus Ohio
Typically our #2 hitter has good speed, so while she may not SAC bunt, she can bunt for a hit and force the defense to make a play. How many times have you seen a 3rd baseman airmail the throw over the 2nd baseman's head when she is covering 1B on a bunt? When the 5'-10" first baseman charges on a bunt and the 5'2" 2nd baseman is covering the bag, the margin for error is diminished.

My point exactly - why give up the out easily? If she can bunt for a hit, why not? But if your #2 hitter isn't a great bunter, or doesn't necessarily have bunt-for-hit speed, yet she's one of your top 3 or 4 hitters on the team, do you take the bat out of her hands?
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
My point exactly - why give up the out easily? If she can bunt for a hit, why not? But if your #2 hitter isn't a great bunter, or doesn't necessarily have bunt-for-hit speed, yet she's one of your top 3 or 4 hitters on the team, do you take the bat out of her hands?

That is a situational decision and a lot of it depends on the pitcher. If the pitcher is mowing through our batting order and hits are hard to come by I am much more likely to bunt runners around trying to manufacture a run. If we are hitting the pitcher hard I am more likely to swing away and take my chances.
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
My point exactly - why give up the out easily? If she can bunt for a hit, why not? But if your #2 hitter isn't a great bunter, or doesn't necessarily have bunt-for-hit speed, yet she's one of your top 3 or 4 hitters on the team, do you take the bat out of her hands?

When we call for a bunt with runners on base, the hitter has done their job if they move the runners up 60 feet. The problem we have experienced with a batter bunting for a hit vs. a straight SAC is they square late and push the ball foul, especially against a good pitcher, ending up with two strikes. Then what do you do?
 
Jul 10, 2014
1,283
0
C-bus Ohio
When we call for a bunt with runners on base, the hitter has done their job if they move the runners up 60 feet. The problem we have experienced with a batter bunting for a hit vs. a straight SAC is they square late and push the ball foul, especially against a good pitcher, ending up with two strikes. Then what do you do?

Understood, but we're talking about a specific situation here: leadoff at 1B, #2 hitter at bat. Do you call for the bunt, or let her do what she's supposed to do in the 2-hole and be the best overall batter on your team? I put my best wOBA at #2 almost always (exception: when my best wOBA is the team sparkplug, then she bats #1), so I'm going to let her do her thing.

If I have my best wOBA in the 3-hole, that's a different story.
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
Understood, but we're talking about a specific situation here: leadoff at 1B, #2 hitter at bat. Do you call for the bunt, or let her do what she's supposed to do in the 2-hole and be the best overall batter on your team? I put my best wOBA at #2 almost always (exception: when my best wOBA is the team sparkplug, then she bats #1), so I'm going to let her do her thing.

If I have my best wOBA in the 3-hole, that's a different story.

If our leadoff gets on and #2 batter has good speed we are probably going to bunt her and see if we get lucky and she legs out a hit or forces a fielding error. We may call a hit and run and get the #2 batter to put the ball on the ground and force the defense to make a play. Worst case we end up with a runner at 2B with one out and our best contact hitter (#3 batter) at the plate.
 
Jul 10, 2014
1,283
0
C-bus Ohio
If our leadoff gets on and #2 batter has good speed we are probably going to bunt her and see if we get lucky and she legs out a hit or forces a fielding error. We may call a hit and run and get the #2 batter to put the ball on the ground and force the defense to make a play. Worst case we end up with a runner at 2B with one out and our best contact hitter (#3 batter) at the plate.

So it's just a question of how we construct our lineups, or possibly which metric we use to determine which player meets our perceived needs within the lineup. But the worst case is nobody on, 2 outs lol!

Below is my MS team from this past season, not in lineup order. What does your lineup look like given these players?
Capture.PNG
 

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,478
Members
21,445
Latest member
Bmac81802
Top