Playing Time in WS or National Tournaments?

CoogansBluff said:

You can characterize what I said as a rec-minded approach if you want.

Click to expand...

And I do characterize what you have suggested as rec-minded ... that was my first response to you in this thread.

Some people want a rec-minded approach, others don't.

Over the years, the path a player takes makes a big difference in what they achieve.

Wish everyone well with their upcoming team selections for next year.

If I've coached a team for 9 months and there are 2-3 girls on the team that are a liability in their World Series, then that's my fault for failing to develop them or putting them on the team in the first place.

Click to expand...

Absolutely WRONG mindset. At tryouts you are RARELY going to get a team full of starters. So you'll almost always end up with players who need work. As a coach you can not completely develop individual players in a team environment. With 12 or more kids on a roster it's impossible. What you can do as a coach is to teach them the how's, what's and why's of playing the game or a position. The players MUST work on their own to master them. If the players are "Practice Players" they will never be one of the players a coach trusts to put on the field. Often it's the parents who fail to help their child. You have no way of knowing that when you take them on the team.

Like pitching, hitting is a very individual thing. I tell my team to get individual instruction. You can only do so much at a team practice. I always set up specific hitting and pitching practices for my teams and it's still hard to watch them all at hitting.

Edit To Add: And sometimes there are kids who will never be as good as your starters no matter how hard they try. They just do not have the natural gifts.

I don't think it is "rec thinking" to try to get everyone into a game. There are many ways to do so. Sure, there are games where they might not play but not back to back to back. If these players are this bad, then they should not be on your roster. Also, I don't believe that a coach can't dramatically improve a player's abilities in a summer. I know that there are things that hinder development but if a coach wants to, and even with a team of 12+, he/she can get it done. For example, those one two or three players could be asked to stay later or arrive earlier for practice so that one on one or two on one coaching can occur. Over time, that will matter. If you are carrying players that can't play in these tournaments where parents are paying huge money to be there then cut them. JMHO!

Cannonball said:

I don't think it is "rec thinking" to try to get everyone into a game. There are many ways to do so. Sure, there are games where they might not play but not back to back to back. If these players are this bad, then they should not be on your roster. Also, I don't believe that a coach can't dramatically improve a player's abilities in a summer. I know that there are things that hinder development but if a coach wants to, and even with a team of 12+, he/she can get it done. For example, those one two or three players could be asked to stay later or arrive earlier for practice so that one on one or two on one coaching can occur. Over time, that will matter. If you are carrying players that can't play in these tournaments where parents are paying huge money to be there then cut them. JMHO!

Click to expand...

If a coach isn't playing a particular player, then that is the message being sent.

Now I know you've gone through such experiences ..... for example a kid that has poor throwing mechanics .... you review the basics, but they don't practice and don't improve ... you give them a throwing program, but they don't use the throwing program and don't improve .... you meet with the parents and review with them the throwing program, you make them throw with their DD and verify that they get it, and yet as time goes by the kid doesn't improve and you learn that the parents don't bother to work with their kid.

The reality is that there will always be certain kids/families that are not interested in getting the work done and wish to ride the coattails of others.

Some even truly believe that it is less effort to whine for playing time than to actually work on skill development.

Now ... this is more true of the lower levels ... simply because at the upper levels such mindsets end up weeded out of the game.

We can only hope that such a mindset doesn't carry over into their future work environment.

FFS, yes, I've been through that situation but rarely. I tend to be very selective for those that play for me. I did have one young man who thought that he knew more and didn't work on anything because he was the 8th grade stud. He never became the 12th grade anything because he didn't make the team after that one year. FFS, I do admit that my experiences are with older players though I did coach from 8U up in softball. Still, I tended to make sure the teams my dd played for contained similar motivated young ladies. Also, they tended not to have more than 12 players.

FiveFrameSwing said:

I was at the 18Gold ASA National Tournament today ... I consider that a somewhat second-tier national tournament ... no longer as competitive as it once was.

A few days ago I was at the 16Gold ASA National Tournament ... I consider that a second-tier national tournament.

I consider the PGF National Tournament to be a tournament where the best teams across the country compete for the opportunity to play each other .... PGF National Championships.

Click to expand...

I agree ASA Gold is no longer at the top. It's so diluted now though it's hard to say who is. PGF has many of the best, but the majority you might also see at ASA Gold. The JO Cup has attracted several of the top teams. ASA/USA is considered the lowest, but the inclusion of college players might mean the best teams are in SC.

Cannonball said:

FFS, yes, I've been through that situation but rarely. I tend to be very selective for those that play for me. I did have one young man who thought that he knew more and didn't work on anything because he was the 8th grade stud. He never became the 12th grade anything because he didn't make the team after that one year. FFS, I do admit that my experiences are with older players though I did coach from 8U up in softball. Still, I tended to make sure the teams my dd played for contained similar motivated young ladies. Also, they tended not to have more than 12 players.

Click to expand...

I've worked with a mixture of high-end and low-end teams. My experience is that low-end teams tend to have this issue. It is one of the reasons I like to see low-end teams commit to playing higher level ball ... because that alone tends to bring the issue to a head where resolution is reached.

The roster was a total of 11 players and every player saw the field in some capacity or another in every game played. There were three warmup/pool games that had no bearing on seeding in which all 11 batted and playing time was spread out for all. So, it was not that players and parents traveled to see their child sit the bench the entire time but more of a complaint about the amount of playing time in bracket play. The entire season was handled the same from beginning to end - pool/warmup all bat and play with elimination putting the best 9 on the field to start and subbing situationally or as practical.

Click to expand...

Your approach is pretty standard.

I would agree with Coogan that there is a difference between 12U and 18U when it comes to PT (playing time) during the elimination round. At 16U and 18U, then play your best in the elimination around. At 10U, all the kids should get some PT in the elimination round. If a game got "out of control" in the elimination round, most coaches would substitute players. FFS makes some good points as well.

My comment to Maj is really, "What did you expect would happen?" Parents *always* want their child to play. If the child doesn't, then the reason is *always* "the coach plays his/her favorites".

There are lots of posts here in March about HS teams. I am still waiting for the post that says, "You know, the coach was right in not playing my DD. The other kids were better." My DD#3 won a college national championship and parents were still complaining about PT.

It is the nature of the beast.

What a coach has to do is make sure (1) that he clearly tells the parents how will assign PT before the season starts, (2) do what he told the parent he would do and (3) make sure the "lesser" kids get enough PT to improve.

CoogansBluff said:

You're saying that a 13-year-old pitcher who is getting 125 innings/year with a B+/A- team would develop more quickly on an A+ team for which she never sees an inning in bracket play? That would not be my advice for a player.

Click to expand...

Actually that would describe DD at 13. She left a B+ team where she was #1 to move to an A+ as #3. She wasn't guaranteed innings in bracket play. They promised the same training as the other pitchers and that she'd see innings in league and pool games. The rest was up to her. If a girl has access to good training and the drive and work ethic, then being surrounded by like minded athletes will make her better. If DD would have stayed on her B+ team she still could have gone on to have a successful HS career. College would be out of the question though.

CoogansBluff said:

In the case of this particular team, at least 2 players and girls/families did not understand the role that this coach had in mind, and a year-ending dumpster fire was the result. I'd be curious to know why. Yes, the OP said that his philosophy was spelled out in preseason. Maybe it was just crazy parents. I know that can happen. But I think another difference in my point of view is the level to which I believe the head coach must take responsibility. Two players failed to develop to the point where they were useful in bracket play. Two sets of parents went away livid. It could be that was largely the fault of the players and families. But again, the coach is the one who chose those players/families. The coach must make player development and communication such high priorities that those bad endings are as unlikely as possible. Maybe the head coach did that. I don't know. But as a head coach, I would ask myself, could I have done more?

Click to expand...

It's hard to know without more info. There may have been some miscommunication. When I've seen parents get upset about playing time during bracket play they knew the coaches strategy, but assumed it was for everyone else because their kid was the best on the team. I would agree that the coach should have been clearer though out the season where kids stood.

sluggers said:

My comment to Maj is really, "What did you expect would happen?" Parents *always* want their child to play. If the child doesn't, then the reason is *always* "the coach plays his/her favorites".

Click to expand...

Trust me, I know it happens and it typically will happen with just about any team. It has been a few years since I coached and the game has evolved a lot in that time. I quit coaching on the field because DD #2 did not or was not responding to my being a coach like DD #1 did (amazing how different two can be). I went simply to individual batting instruction and supported DD#2. Most of the coaches in my area know me and some of their daughters played for me, so it usually does not matter which team DD #2 ends up playing with, I will typically get asked to help with some one on one instruction with players that might be struggling and I offer to help with other aspects of the team but I draw the line on coaching on the field at this point. We left a decent B team to give a start-up B+/A- team in a very good organization a shot because DD#2 needed more competition to keep her from becoming complacent. She was the ace for the team we left and came in as the #3, she was the solid #4 batter and started out at #8, and her normal 1B was occupied by an outstanding player so she started in RF. In other words, this was a perfect opportunity to provide the motivation she needed to continue to advance. Like I said earlier, I thought the coach was perfectly clear that playing time was earned, not guaranteed to start the season. It was also clear in the player/parent contract and even in bold.

DD#2 was given every opportunity and managed to get where she wanted to be by the end of the season, except for pitching, where she remained the #3 and pitched a grand total of two innings (both in warm up games) in the final tournament. I did not feel like she deserved an opportunity to pitch more innings as a parent and I could have easily said the other two remained #1 and #2 because they were coaches' kids. It was not the case, they simply were the best pitchers but DD#2 did improve and I had absolutely no complaints. Was DD#2 disappointed about her playing time? Of course she was but the coach was clear on what needed to improve in order to increase her time on the mound.

My curiosity and the reason for asking the question was to see what other coaches do when it comes to playing time in the pinnacle tournament of the year. I can see both sides clearly because I have been on both sides, as I am certain many of you have as well. Generally, I give coaches the benefit of the doubt though.