Playing Time in WS or National Tournaments?

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Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
DD's 2014 team played in the NSA World Series last year. We really wanted to win it. We thought we could. We took 10 players. Sitting our worst hitter would've helped. But I had no problem whatsoever with batting all 10, and neither did the players. She went about 1-for-12. So be it. Effort wasn't an issue. She just doesn't hit that well to that point in her life.

Don't sweat it. Your competition likely wanted to win also, and you helped.

The more rec the level of play that you are dealing with, the more acceptable that is.

The more competitive the level of play, the less acceptable that is. Parents shoveling out significant bucks for their kids to play against high level competition ... and pitchers that work their tail off year round ... and players that take the message to heart of developing their own skills ... aren't going to be overly happy seeing their efforts tossed to the wind.
 
Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
Don't sweat it. Your competition likely wanted to win also, and you helped.

The more rec the level of play that you are dealing with, the more acceptable that is.

The more competitive the level of play, the less acceptable that is. Parents shoveling out significant bucks for their kids to play against high level competition ... and pitchers that work their tail off year round ... and players that take the message to heart of developing their own skills ... aren't going to be overly happy seeing their efforts tossed to the wind.

You assume that 9 players are working their tails off and that 2 aren't. What if all 11 are working their tails off? Yes, there comes a time where winning is more important. Just a difference of opinion about when and where that begins.

...the two players in question had the lowest batting averages, lowest on base percentage, were two of the weakest defensive players (accounted for based on errors),
and only played in elimination games sparingly during the season

Is it possible that these two facts are not a coincidence? Hard to get better if you play sparingly in elimination games all season.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
Yes, but question remains. What is a national tournament?

My philosophy for USSSA 12U World Series wouldn't be the same as ASA 18U Gold Nationals.

Also, some of your best advice has been to be process-oriented vs. results-oriented in developing a hitter. At some point, results are the bottom line, both for a team and a hitter. As it applies to youth softball teams, I appear to have a different definition and timeline for the process than do many coaches.

I was at the 18Gold ASA National Tournament today ... I consider that a somewhat second-tier national tournament ... no longer as competitive as it once was.

A few days ago I was at the 16Gold ASA National Tournament ... I consider that a second-tier national tournament.

I consider the PGF National Tournament to be a tournament where the best teams across the country compete for the opportunity to play each other .... PGF National Championships.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
You assume that 9 players are working their tails off and that 2 aren't. What if all 11 are working their tails off? Yes, there comes a time where winning is more important. Just a difference of opinion about when and where that begins.

I'm not making that assumption.

What I'm saying is that your approach will fail to build a strong competitive national level team.

Pitchers that bust their hump, working year round, aren't going to be interested in signing up for a team that blows out simply because of a rec-minded coach.

What you will attract with this approach are those seeking a subsidy. Nothing wrong with that mind you .... you are welcome to take any approach you feel is best.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
Hard to get better if you play sparingly in elimination games all season.

It's also hard to get better if you don't put in the extra work to get better.

On the higher level teams that I've been around, the message is clear ..... players/families own the responsibility for their skill development.

If the only work a player does is in practice, then they aren't doing enough work.

Practices are a good time to show your coaches how you are doing in terms of developing your skills. They are a good time for a player to collect feedback on what their coaches want to see improved. Before the next practice take the time to work on skill development so that you can demonstrate your improvement.
 
Last edited:
Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
It's also hard to get better if you don't put in the extra work to get better.

Yes, but there is no indication of that in the OP. My original response touched on the assumption that the effort is there.

What I'm saying is that your approach will fail to build a strong competitive national level team.

Perhaps true, but that is not the realistic goal of most teams. Is that the goal of the OP? I coached from 10U to 12U, four seasons. My goal was to develop the players I had, not build a national level team. I never lost a valuable player doing it that way. I would have eventually, but that would be fine. There comes a time when they need to move on. Four of the players that I coached are now playing for nationally competitive showcase teams at ages 15-16. My team wasn't going to get there, but the team could help them get there, and the others be better than they were. One of those players was a pitcher who got spit out of a 'play the best 9' team when she was 11. In fact, several of my players had been spit out. We gave this girl innings, endured her wildness, even if it might've cost us a game or two. Three years later, she now plays for the #1 program in Georgia.

As I said, there's a time and place for the philosophy you're espousing. I'm just in less of a hurry to get to that time and place than you are.
 
Nov 18, 2013
2,255
113
I've gotta side with FFS on this one. A team trying to compete nationally can't just have 11 players and girls/families need to understand their roles. If a coach is claiming to be competitive and they don't go with their best lineup they're doing a disservice to the rest of the team. Girls are developed at practice and working individually. They'll learn a hell of a lot more as a player who never sees the field in bracket play in a strong organization than they will starting on a team with rec minded coaches.
 
Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
Girls are developed at practice and working individually. They'll learn a hell of a lot more as a player who never sees the field in bracket play in a strong organization than they will starting on a team with rec minded coaches.

You're saying that a 13-year-old pitcher who is getting 125 innings/year with a B+/A- team would develop more quickly on an A+ team for which she never sees an inning in bracket play? That would not be my advice for a player.

A team trying to compete nationally can't just have 11 players and girls/families need to understand their roles.

In the case of this particular team, at least 2 players and girls/families did not understand the role that this coach had in mind, and a year-ending dumpster fire was the result. I'd be curious to know why. Yes, the OP said that his philosophy was spelled out in preseason. Maybe it was just crazy parents. I know that can happen. But I think another difference in my point of view is the level to which I believe the head coach must take responsibility. Two players failed to develop to the point where they were useful in bracket play. Two sets of parents went away livid. It could be that was largely the fault of the players and families. But again, the coach is the one who chose those players/families. The coach must make player development and communication such high priorities that those bad endings are as unlikely as possible. Maybe the head coach did that. I don't know. But as a head coach, I would ask myself, could I have done more?
 
Jul 25, 2015
148
0
Obviously a lot of assumptions made ITT. The discussion was really what I was looking for, so thanks for that. Just for clarification, I assist primarily with batting for the team and I keep the books but I am not an on the field coach. IMO, the pinnacle end of the year tournament for a team is really irrelevant if it is the highest level of competition for that particular team (it varies for each team). The roster was a total of 11 players and every player saw the field in some capacity or another in every game played. There were three warmup/pool games that had no bearing on seeding in which all 11 batted and playing time was spread out for all. So, it was not that players and parents traveled to see their child sit the bench the entire time but more of a complaint about the amount of playing time in bracket play. The entire season was handled the same from beginning to end - pool/warmup all bat and play with elimination putting the best 9 on the field to start and subbing situationally or as practical.

Personally, I did not see the daddy ball but I was wondering if my status made me too close to actually see it. The coaches were great from my perspective throughout the year and all of the girls improved. I did not hear complaints from any of the girls and really there were not any complaints from the parents that I was aware of until this last tournament was over. At this point, we are evaluating whether to stay with this team next season and I was curious of opinions concerning playing time at the pinnacle tournament of the year.

I coached long enough to know to stay out of discussions like this with other team parents and I have had to be quite blunt with a couple of parents that have called wanting my opinion. I really did not see any issues with how everything went and honestly the lack of guaranteed playing time really helped my daughter focus more on individual development than I have seen in the past. So much so that she worked her way from the No 8 slot to the No 4 slot in the order before the end of the season - beating out the HC daughter in the process.
 
Jun 27, 2011
5,089
0
North Carolina
Obviously a lot of assumptions made ITT. The discussion was really what I was looking for, so thanks for that.

TM - Good post. Thanks for the additional info.

One assumption that I made was based on this:

Original post -

... when it came to elimination games, the 9 players that gave the team the best chance to win would play.

Latest post -

The roster was a total of 11 players and every player saw the field in some capacity or another in every game played.

So, I envisioned 2 kids being benched for several entire games. Now, I see that everybody played in every game.

Also should have noted you said 'elimination' games and not merely 'bracket' games. That makes a difference, also.
 

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